I was pleased to see that the latest patch increased the length of the 737-700 cabin, which is my main aircraft type.
Using the same seats etc I was able to gain a further 5 seats in Economy. However this has cost me nearly 4m!!!
I was hoping this element of the patch would be free, as it's just a correction rather than a change from my point of view.
Are there any plans to reimburse this payment?
I don´t think there will be a reimburse since otherwise it would have been announced. And normally you have to pay for seats or seat improvements.
I just changed the seats in my 737-7s as well at a cost of 44M$. What's bad about it is that if the cabin length had been correct in the first place, I would have only paid the difference in cost between the two configurations, not the full cost. I think this should be rectified!
You can thank me for the increased cabin length of 737-700 and 737-600 :)
I think the increased seats more than compensate for the cost of the new cabin installation... so I do not think refund is necessary. If you have had seat plans since before the second widespread seat plan adjustment, you will get refund. I knew this adjustment was coming so I held onto many older seat plans without exchanging them (I do not mean the old old plans, but rather the first version of new cabin config plans). I am sure there are thousands of planes still flying with the first version of the new cabin config(which was not obligatory to change to the second version) so those planes will still get refunds, and also it is not obligatory to change now to the third version for -700 and -600s seat config so you can still fly with the older version of seat config (2nd generation).
What I think would be better than all these refunds etc. is to be able to store the seats for future use ... that way we would only pay the difference for new seats. I know this feature has been suggested and is on a to-do list.
I knew this adjustment was coming.......
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So we do have two classes of players.
The upper class knows that adjustments will come and they can make their strategy accordingly and the lower other class (the stupid ones) spend their AS$ for new seats.
My english is not good enough to express what i really think regarding this two-class society.
I knew this adjustment was coming...
Personally I am not affected due to the fact that none of my airline operate these aircraft but what was your source of information?
If you have had seat plans since before the second widespread seat plan adjustment, you will get refund. I knew this adjustment was coming so I held onto many older seat plans without exchanging them (I do not mean the old old plans, but rather the first version of new cabin config plans).
Before I get to the obvious here, let me ask this: weren't people supposed to change their seats as soon as they were aware of the situation and able to pay for it? I remember that being part of both cabin configuration updates because it was a new system. That should not be allowed.
So we do have two classes of players.
The upper class knows that adjustments will come and they can make their strategy accordingly and the lower other class (the stupid ones) spend their AS$ for new seats.
My english is not good enough to express what i really think regarding this two-class society.
I agree with Rainer here. Not only is it using information you have over everyone else, but the fact that you are profiting (or losing much less) from it strikes me as quite an exploit. I will wait to hear what you say in response to MD's post before I say anything else.
Personally I am not affected due to the fact that none of my airline operate these aircraft but what was your source of information?
Because it was me who discovered the cabin length inconsistency and discussed it with AS support.
I was informed that the cabin will be adjusted, it was supposed to be done with previous data patch in April but somehow it did not go through. I patiently waited for the next data patch.
Ah, OK!
Before I get to the obvious here, let me ask this: weren't people supposed to change their seats as soon as they were aware of the situation and able to pay for it? I remember that being part of both cabin configuration updates because it was a new system. That should not be allowed.
I agree with Rainer here. Not only is it using information you have over everyone else, but the fact that you are profiting (or losing much less) from it strikes me as quite an exploit. I will wait to hear what you say in response to MD's post before I say anything else.
Sorry Caithes but I do not think that everybody needs to tell on board what is discussing with AS support. Should I also tell the board that AS will be reviewing A350 in July to see if it will be the same maintenance category as A330 or different one? Is also knowing that an exploit?
I can go back if necessary and find the post, but I am clearly sure that it was stated that only the OLD OLD seat config (economy, economy plus, etc.) needed to be changed to new config, with deadline I think back in March or April. Then the newer version of seat config came online and I clearly remember that it was stated by AS team that only the configs that did not have the "edit button" need to be replaced, and the others can stay. Nowhere it was stated and I am 100% positive of that that the first version new-style seat config had to be changed other than for several plane types (Edit: for 737-600). If you (or anyone else) can show me otherwise I will say that I wronged, but I am 100% positive there was no such requirement. Oh btw I just checked and on 737-700/600s I have no "first generation new style" configs (all have both delete and edit buttons), though I do have them on 737 classics. So what I am guilty of now? Of knowing that 737-700 seating adjustment will come in before you got to know it?
OK here we go some threads:
http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/6299-clarification-on-cabin-configuration/
most importantly:
http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/6289-new-cabin-configurations/#entry51947
it says 2nd generation of new seat configs cannot be assigned but can stay
http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/6289-new-cabin-configurations/page-2#entry52104
(the clue being for as long as it had the "edit" button)
and my post in that thread which got thumbs up
http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/6289-new-cabin-configurations/page-2#entry52026
http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/6289-new-cabin-configurations/page-3#entry52115
Ah Caithes, and I am also discussing with AS about 737-800 fuel burn. I consider it excessive. They probably will not adjust it. I think they should. Just letting you know so you will not consider my discussion about 737-800 fuel an exploit as well. What if they at one point decided that the fuel burn for -800 should be adjusted and I know it before you do? I guess I should copy you on all my support tickets with AS!
Didn't realize I touched a nerve. You might have skipped where I stated:
I will wait to hear what you say in response to MD's post before I say anything else.
I never said you should disclose your talks with AS to me or anyone else. You seem like you generally try to improve or at least correct mathematical and other errors in the game. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have said something about it on the forum. You have been very vocal about things you feel need to be changed. Obviously you have been correct in at least some, else they wouldn't have been changing and updating things.
My words may have come across as a bit harsh, and if they did, then that's just a factor that most all text-based messages are misunderstood because the tone of the writing is never heard.
However, what Rainer said is basically true. The fact that some people (or even just one person) knows beforehand, and because so, does not do what most everyone else does on the game because they know and the majority doesn't know, creates a duality of members. If others had known, they would have not spent their "rebate money" to update the seats at that time, but would have waited, just like you did. Whether it was required or not, that would be on me not making the statement correct. In this situation, though, I would have thought it would have been stated. That does not mean it's your fault. It could just as well be AS's fault for not informing the public.
Peace then.
I still do not think it was my obligation to inform that an error was found. Actually it was quite quickly determined by AS that the floorplan should be adjusted. Couple of days layer a patch was released but somehow adjustment did not go through. Few days before the last patch I asked AS when patch will be released and they did mot know yet. Myself I was quite pleasantly surprised to find this adjustment in a patch that was released just days after the last follow up.
I think there is no precedent for situations like this one. First of all I agree that once adjustment is agreed on by AS (of any kind) it should be public, but at the same time I do not think it should be player’s responsibility to make it public.
My suggestion is that in the future when an adjustment is approved it would be best to post it in server announcements so everybody can read it.
And last about this topic, we should not forget that a huge number of planes got changed from the first directly into third generation seating, simply because those players (MAYBE even some of those complaining here now?) did not heed the warnings and announcements and actually had no second generation seating installed in their -700s and got surprised by drastic actions that ended the first generation seating. For those players there was no way to adjust to second generation seating and get a pending seating credit for current use. Btw I was one of the first ones to change from first to second generation seating and was one of those along with Nesherius complaining about competitors who were getting better ORS witch cheaper (and more capacity) older seats.
(extracted from previous post of mine to make this clearer and more legible).
So my take on the complaint of "having had to spend so much and so much", and that "if I knew about the patch i could have saved the money", presented by some players, and also caithes' claim of having an undue advantage by knowing that the 737 floorplan was coming through changed via the data patch, all these complaints/claims I will now show that there is no basis for them and the have absolutely no merit whatsoever.
I will explain.
1) If the player switched to second generation seat config of -700, there was no need to change it to third generation (see links above). If the player did change it to third generation indeed, that is basically "his" call and not an issue for anybody else, nor can such player blame anybody else.
2) If the player claims he did not know he can keep the second generation config, then again there is nobody else to blame but him because he did not read forums. I read all forums regularly even foreign language forums with Google translate, especially German forums, because many things are discussed there. I suggest using Chrome browser which can automatically translate into English, with quite comprehensible translation.
3) If the player switched directly from first generation into third generation config, he has even less so to voice complain now because he used the "old" seat config for much longer and received undue ORS advantage. We all know that AS had to take drastic measures to remove first generation seats form planes. At the time the drastic closure/penalty/flight cancellations for old seat config (first generation) came into effect, the second generation was already "disabled" for new plane assignments and the third generation of seat config was live.
4) If the player acquired -700 after the third generation came into effect (and until the day the new floorplan patch was released few days ago), he cannot blame anybody because there were only three options: not to get -700, get it and not install seats, or install third generation seats, Even if the community knew the floorplan change was coming, it was unclear WHEN exactly, so you would be again left with the three options above - do you wait, and forego revenue/expansion, or do you wait? I reiterate that even myself I was not aware of when exactly the patch will be released.
5) Even if a portion of a player's fleet was/is with second generation seat config, that seat config cannot be applied to new planes, it can only stay with old planes. So every new plane -700 received after the third generation config went live did have to have the third generation config, meaning no credit for seats, even if older -700s with second generation config were/are still eligible for refund of the second generation seat configs.
Now any reasonable critically thinking person, after digesting this, would realize:
a) Either those complaining here used old config (first generation - old cabin editor) until the last moment and did not have access to second generation config and the corresponding refund/credit tehy could use now on a part of their fleet (that part acquired before the third generation seat config went into effect);
b ) Or they did indeed use second generation seat config on part of their fleet but for some inexplicable reason changed it for third generation config, most likely because they ignored what was written in the forums (but who's to blame in such case);
c) Or they are complaining about recently acquired -700, on which they still would have had to instal third generation config (meaning no refunds/credits) or leave those newly acquired plane without seats, or not get those planes at all - that is in the case had they known that the patch was coming through - and all of this means in this particular case the complaint is absolutely without merit - @ caithes, you are accountant, so I am sure you can gasp the concept of opportunity cost, and that after the third generation seat config went live (which was months ago) even had everybody known new floorplan was coming through it would have been to get a plane or not to get a plane, but no monetary advantage there;
As for c) because nobody knew exactly when the patch was coming through, it was a guessing game and a game of chances - first option was to get a plane and put it to work (two months ago, a month ago, two weeks ago, one day before the patch was released, etc.), and the second option was to wait. I guess anyone who got a plane in the last two weeks already has his seat config paid for, so his finances are even out. The only affected people can be those who got the plane less than a week before the patch was released. (my calculation is: a very minimum of AS$3,000 profit per flight on short haul x 8 turns per day x 7 days = AS$168,000 or the average regular/premium seat config cost). Anybody who scheduled a plane more than 7 days before the patch was released already got the seat config paid back.
And as I said, 7, 14, 30, 60 days ago, it was (even knowing of patch) either you put the plane to make money, or not.
So the 40+ million cost some players claim can be counted down and reduced to exactly how many -700 planes did he install seat config in a week's period prior to patch release. So ... how much... maybe down to a million.
Now, with the calm head, and with the business administration mind back on track and free of emotions, I am happy that I could have presented an analysis of the complains and refute them, and to show that they were quite lacking of any merit.
Hi,
George (Rubio) is active on this forum and often shares his knowledge about the game with other players. You cannot say that he is very secretive.
Besides, those who are blaming him for not announcing the pending changes are actually saying that it is the responsibility of a player to announce patches. Be honest, that is a bit silly.
He told the AS-team that - according to his information - the cabin length of the 736 and 73G was incorrect. It was up to the AS-team to check their facts, and decide if the difference was big enough and worth the trouble of changing the cabin floor dimensions in the game. It was also their call to announce it ahead of time, or just announce it when the servers were patched.
Apparently, they decided the changes were not big enough to announce them beforehand. And in my case, it would not have made any difference. I would still have leased 73G's for my new subsidiary... I simply needed them.
Earlier this year, the floor plans of some planes where changed. Mainly wide cabin floor plans. Back then, nobody complained that he also could replace the seats in his other planes for free. Well, if you did not change the seats of your 73G's in... march (?) then you can still change them for free now.
Jan
I can't add a new row to my 737G's however I can increase seat spacing. As you need a new config.. so it seems to increase seat spacing.. I will have to pay in full for a refit. Don't really think this is honest.
I can't add a new row to my 737G's however I can increase seat spacing. As you need a new config.. so it seems to increase seat spacing.. I will have to pay in full for a refit. Don't really think this is honest.
Then just keep your old config like I'm doing....
I can't add a new row to my 737G's however I can increase seat spacing. As you need a new config.. so it seems to increase seat spacing.. I will have to pay in full for a refit. Don't really think this is honest.
Depending on your config, you may or may not be able to add a new row. At this time 737-700 cabin space should be the same as 737-300, and 737-600 same as 737-500.
George