My Opinions About Fair Play

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1

Recently, there are so many argument about Fair Play. And AS TEAM also took some action on resolve it. My subcompany Europe Star Airlines is also be closed at this time. I just want to clarify some things and talk about my opinions about Fair Play.

For Europe Star Airlines

1. I also dislike using L4Ts at larger airports. I totally agree to ban small aircraft at large airports, but we need to have a specific rule for that.

  1. There is another airline at LHR who starting using a lot of L4Ts way before Europe Star Airlines was created. I specifically asked AS team to see if this is legal, and the answer is ‘Yes’. In order to stay alive in this most competitive market, I decide to start Europe Star Airlines. 

  2. Europe Star Airlines has a very good profit margin. It generates several millions of profit every week. We are not using it to block slots. We are running the airline to earn money.

4. In fact i pretended to post this topic and close the Europe Star Airlines yesterday but there are so many business to do yesterday.I want to close the airlines Not because I did something wrong or i want to avoid the punishment, it's just my own way to stop this argument and to create a quieter sky. Right now AS Team closed it, i accept the result but i really think it is very important to make clear rules what we can do what we can't at beginning, or at least right now...

For FairPlay

Yes,Europe Star Airlines and Air Phoenix International did use small seats on Business class(For Europe Star is Standard for Phoenix is Slimline HD), but what someone did not mentioned is we also provided very decent service and highly competitive pricing. This made our flights to have an acceptable ORS rank. Yes, we do have a good profit margin because of that. However, I think it is fair for everyone because you could decide your own combination of seats and price, in order to get the best SLF and profit. To think about this in a realistic way, it is like operating private charter flights.

Some people may say it's not fair to have such a good profit margin. Lets give an example. Company A has spent a lot of time and effort in AirlineSim, but Company B only goes online five minutes a day with no strategy at all. Do you think this is fair if A and B have the same profit margin?

We did quite a lot of research even before the server start. We used a lot of math calculation to get the best routing and profit. With the new cabin system, we did a lot of trial and errors to create a precise and efficient control of our ORS ratings. With all the effort and time, we do have a decent profit margin.

Also, IMHO, I don’t think the problem will be solved just by banning small seats on business class. Using large seats with super high price will also create the same kind of profit. It’s the ORS rank model that matters.

In the past few days, I did see that many people could analyze this issue in a calmly manner even they disagree with this kind of strategies. I would like to say thank you for your understanding. However, I also saw a few people who seemed way too angry with it and started abusing people with very bad words and/or photoshopped pics. These people claim that they want to find the true joy of this game by developing their airlines slowly. Yes, I respect you for your way of playing, it is your own rights. However, for those who are acting too aggressive, I have nothing to say. I wrote this for the AS team and for those people who stay calm, not for those people who are angry at everything we do.

 

Thank you! 

2

Oh gosh, one of the alliance members is posting, brace yourselves for a comment war.

I'm surprised you could make any money from a tiny LET considering the handling expenses in the hundreds, I'm assuming he went 50% above default price + slimline seats then

I'm not angry at "everything you do", just when the game is taken advantage of, which leads to an outcry with AS players as expected, play against the game-not other people.  

To put an end on this, you couldn't have emphasized my point better, I spend hours every week carefully planning each connection time, to be overgrown with competitors using slimline seats and raised prices, perhaps I'm being too competitive (considering it's taken me months-literally-to get a profitable airline) But the final point is: when you take advantage of the game with a loophole, it doesn't make the game any fun for other players. I'm intrigued to know what the next scheme will be, have a good holiday. 

3

First of all, I hate putting L4Ts at large airports.

For the business class seating issue, in my own opinion, this is due to the ORS ranking system.

I did several trial and errors and have tried both large and small seats for business class.

When changing from SlimlineHD to Leisure Plus, I experienced 0(Zero) to 1(One) mark increase in the ORS overall rating, when price remained the same.

When changing from Standard to Recliner Shorthaul, I experienced around 7(Seven) mark increase, but the airplane has around 20 less seats than standard seating, when price remained the same.

In order to get the best optimum price-performance ratio, it's the company's choice to select which kind of seat to use.

So, lets give an example based on an Airbus A320. 

First config:      C30(Standard) Y144(Standard),  total seats 174,  ORS rank 50

Second config: C30(Recliner)   Y126(Standard),  total seats 156, ORS rank 57

The first config could make around $20000 more than the second config per day. However, I did hear that using lie flat seats would create a much better ORS rating, but haven't tried it yet.

In this case, when I see minimal ORS difference, why should we use the one which creates less profit? Just to be realistic? Well, real world airlines are already adding smaller seats into their airplanes just because they want to make more money. Air Canada is putting 459 seats into their B77Ws with 3-4-3 seating, and a much worse business class compared to their products before. We don't like that, but there's nothing we could do, because we still have the demand to travel.

When you create a new config in the cabin editor, after clicking 'Add Cabin' and selecting F or C class, 'Standard' seating is chosen by default. Due to this I assume putting Standard seats on C and F is at least not banned before.

The goal of this game is to develop our airline in this highly competitive game world, to do it in our own style based on the existing game settings.

This is a business simulation game, and this is a market economy. There is demand, and we provide supply. I believe the AS team has nothing wrong with this.

Thank you.

4

 Using large seats with super high price will also create the same kind of profit. It's the ORS rank model that matters.

Agreed. There is no difference

X amount of Recliner seats for business and a high price of XXX which results in a 1 point ORS rating.

or

X Standard seats for business and a lower price of XXX which results in a 1 point ORS rating.

The only difference will be the number of passengers you've transported.

people who seemed way too angry with it and started abusing people with very bad words 

I really second this. The level of class and politeness has taken a strong hit. I think I've never seen more topics closed and reminders by the staff to remain friendly than in the last few days and weeks. Especially around the holidays, it's quite sad actually.

I hope this is just a phase and we'll be back to normal, when the heat in the new game world drops.

5

@ sinbaron and Allenair

What I don't really understand are two things ...... Your alliance is using effective communication and putting a lot of effort into the game and I truly can respect that. But for God's sake .... it is the 4th!!! time on a new server ( at least thats how I can remember) that we are having this kind of conversation about your alliance in the Forum. And everytime it does not look like you have understood or willingly ignoring any comment that has been made in the past. Everytime it is your team members that get into trouble of slot blocking, unrealistig growth by using loopholes like using Old airplanes, Small aircrafts, high density seat configurations and so on. I do understand that it might happen once or twice .... but FOUR times?? 95 percent of the player in aspern have a normal way of playing. One is using planes like CRJ, ATR and Dash's ... another one is starting with B737 or A320 and other ones using 787 and A330's to start with. And 95 percent using a 2 or 3 class Configuration with adequate seats in each Class. Using a Service as they like and asking for a normal Price. Why don't you want to play that way? Almost all your team members used SlimHD or maximum Standard seats in all your config. There is nothing wrong in using SlimHD seats .... just don't put them in a business class. As said before .... of course we could implement very strict rules ... but what would be the result? If we for example would stricly ban small airplanes to airports with 1-2 demand bars then you have a clear Rule but these planes would not be used because you can not connect with a bigger hub. We just want to give you bounderies. A Let or ATR are used to connect smaller airports to bigger Ones. Or they are connecting Islands with bigger hubs or they are used at airports with very short runways. You say this is an economic simulation .... maybe you start thinking of this beeing an airline simulation  ;)

AllenAir is saying that by default Standard seats will come up ... that is right and I will bring this up but I personally think if you read the description of the seat you should notice that this is normally not what you find in most airlines as a C Class seat. And by the way ... if you activate the comfort function for seats you will get Comfort seats in Eco Class, Ricliner Longhaul for business and Lie Flat 160 seats in First. That is the default setting but as said I understand that the other setting might be misleading. 

6

What is a comfort function? This is the first time I am hearing about it.

7

@ sinbaron and Allenair

What I don't really understand are two things ...... Your alliance is using effective communication and putting a lot of effort into the game and I truly can respect that. But for God's sake .... it is the 4th!!! time on a new server ( at least thats how I can remember) that we are having this kind of conversation about your alliance in the Forum. And everytime it does not look like you have understood or willingly ignoring any comment that has been made in the past. Everytime it is your team members that get into trouble of slot blocking, unrealistig growth by using loopholes like using Old airplanes, Small aircrafts, high density seat configurations and so on. I do understand that it might happen once or twice .... but FOUR times?? 95 percent of the player in aspern have a normal way of playing. One is using planes like CRJ, ATR and Dash's ... another one is starting with B737 or A320 and other ones using 787 and A330's to start with. And 95 percent using a 2 or 3 class Configuration with adequate seats in each Class. Using a Service as they like and asking for a normal Price. Why don't you want to play that way? Almost all your team members used SlimHD or maximum Standard seats in all your config. There is nothing wrong in using SlimHD seats .... just don't put them in a business class. As said before .... of course we could implement very strict rules ... but what would be the result? If we for example would stricly ban small airplanes to airports with 1-2 demand bars then you have a clear Rule but these planes would not be used because you can not connect with a bigger hub. We just want to give you bounderies. A Let or ATR are used to connect smaller airports to bigger Ones. Or they are connecting Islands with bigger hubs or they are used at airports with very short runways. You say this is an economic simulation .... maybe you start thinking of this beeing an airline simulation  ;)

AllenAir is saying that by default Standard seats will come up ... that is right and I will bring this up but I personally think if you read the description of the seat you should notice that this is normally not what you find in most airlines as a C Class seat. And by the way ... if you activate the comfort function for seats you will get Comfort seats in Eco Class, Ricliner Longhaul for business and Lie Flat 160 seats in First. That is the default setting but as said I understand that the other setting might be misleading. 

normal way ?  now that you say normal way to play ，what is normal play just follow most player ？is there no innovation ？ 

8

normal way ?  now that you say normal way to play ，what is normal play just follow most player ？is there no innovation ？ 

I think normal way in this context refers to this phrase "start thinking of this being an airline simulation".

What are the normal way real life airlines operate? Would a real life airline be able to charge 3x price for a slimline business or 5x for a slimline first class seat?

9

1067

e1902.png

Here is an example of using standard seats on business class in real world while charging 3x the price.

This applies to all Dash 8s, CRJs and EMBs in their fleet.

As we can see, this strategy is used in the real world by many major airlines, even passengers may not like it.

10

Deleted

11

@ sinbaron and Allenair

What I don't really understand are two things ...... Your alliance is using effective communication and putting a lot of effort into the game and I truly can respect that. But for God's sake .... it is the 4th!!! time on a new server ( at least thats how I can remember) that we are having this kind of conversation about your alliance in the Forum. And everytime it does not look like you have understood or willingly ignoring any comment that has been made in the past. Everytime it is your team members that get into trouble of slot blocking, unrealistig growth by using loopholes like using Old airplanes, Small aircrafts, high density seat configurations and so on. I do understand that it might happen once or twice .... but FOUR times?? 95 percent of the player in aspern have a normal way of playing. One is using planes like CRJ, ATR and Dash's ... another one is starting with B737 or A320 and other ones using 787 and A330's to start with. And 95 percent using a 2 or 3 class Configuration with adequate seats in each Class. Using a Service as they like and asking for a normal Price. Why don't you want to play that way? Almost all your team members used SlimHD or maximum Standard seats in all your config. There is nothing wrong in using SlimHD seats .... just don't put them in a business class. As said before .... of course we could implement very strict rules ... but what would be the result? If we for example would stricly ban small airplanes to airports with 1-2 demand bars then you have a clear Rule but these planes would not be used because you can not connect with a bigger hub. We just want to give you bounderies. A Let or ATR are used to connect smaller airports to bigger Ones. Or they are connecting Islands with bigger hubs or they are used at airports with very short runways. You say this is an economic simulation .... maybe you start thinking of this beeing an airline simulation  ;)

AllenAir is saying that by default Standard seats will come up ... that is right and I will bring this up but I personally think if you read the description of the seat you should notice that this is normally not what you find in most airlines as a C Class seat. And by the way ... if you activate the comfort function for seats you will get Comfort seats in Eco Class, Ricliner Longhaul for business and Lie Flat 160 seats in First. That is the default setting but as said I understand that the other setting might be misleading. 

Think all the situations which will happen in the game is the best way . not someting happen and then punish , you fix this  and another will come out 

it is my views ;) 

12

e1902.png

Here is an example of using standard seats on business class in real world while charging 3x the price.

This applies to all Dash 8s, CRJs and EMBs in their fleet.

As we can see, this strategy is used in the real world by many major airlines, even passengers may not like it.

Well thats actually quite a nice example .... first if you place our SlimHD seats with the same Config like in the Picture then you will get almost the same seating ... 16 Business Class seats and 96 Economy . Problem is ... only 8 of the 16 Business Class are sold right? because the other 8 seats are blocked as it is written there as well. I know that LH is using standard seats also in the B737 and A320 fleet where only the middle seat is used as a divider so you have only 2 C Class Seats instead of the normal 3-3 config. Unfortunately we can not simulate that at the Moment in AS and thats why we ask not to use a full Slim HD or Standard Configuration in Business Class. But if you play a little around with the Config I came up with 9 (instead of 8 in the Picture) Comfort Seats for Business Class and then 92 Standard seats for economy on an EMB 190. and there is nothing wrong with this Configuration. 

13

@ sinbaron and Allenair

What I don't really understand are two things ...... Your alliance is using effective communication and putting a lot of effort into the game and I truly can respect that. But for God's sake .... it is the 4th!!! time on a new server ( at least thats how I can remember) that we are having this kind of conversation about your alliance in the Forum. And everytime it does not look like you have understood or willingly ignoring any comment that has been made in the past. Everytime it is your team members that get into trouble of slot blocking, unrealistig growth by using loopholes like using Old airplanes, Small aircrafts, high density seat configurations and so on. I do understand that it might happen once or twice .... but FOUR times?? 95 percent of the player in aspern have a normal way of playing. One is using planes like CRJ, ATR and Dash's ... another one is starting with B737 or A320 and other ones using 787 and A330's to start with. And 95 percent using a 2 or 3 class Configuration with adequate seats in each Class. Using a Service as they like and asking for a normal Price. Why don't you want to play that way? Almost all your team members used SlimHD or maximum Standard seats in all your config. There is nothing wrong in using SlimHD seats .... just don't put them in a business class. As said before .... of course we could implement very strict rules ... but what would be the result? If we for example would stricly ban small airplanes to airports with 1-2 demand bars then you have a clear Rule but these planes would not be used because you can not connect with a bigger hub. We just want to give you bounderies. A Let or ATR are used to connect smaller airports to bigger Ones. Or they are connecting Islands with bigger hubs or they are used at airports with very short runways. You say this is an economic simulation .... maybe you start thinking of this beeing an airline simulation  ;)

AllenAir is saying that by default Standard seats will come up ... that is right and I will bring this up but I personally think if you read the description of the seat you should notice that this is normally not what you find in most airlines as a C Class seat. And by the way ... if you activate the comfort function for seats you will get Comfort seats in Eco Class, Ricliner Longhaul for business and Lie Flat 160 seats in First. That is the default setting but as said I understand that the other setting might be misleading. 

So I can only repeat what I suggested before. Either program the game in a way that these practices are impossible, or set up clear rules to forbid it.

You asked "why don't you want to play that way?" Really, now it is only a matter of "want to" or "don't want to". When there is money to make, persuading people not to use every possible means allowed in the system to make that money is just futile. And it happened four times already... isn't there a lesson the AS team should have learned?

And I also agree that the atmosphere is turning bad. Once again ES is being lambasted and taking all the blame. That helps to vent, but that does not solve the problem.

14

That me assume it In real world:

Using small seats in higher classes to earn money and grow up rapidly is not a fault, and no one can't deny it is a good Business strategy, even some companies use full small seats in higher classes.

And using small airplanes to occupy slot, it is both business strategy.

However, it is also the competitions to suit these companies, and using dirty tricks to make these companies fail, or disappear, that is both Business strategy. 

Business is business, right?

And I am sure that if it happens in real world, no government will sentence it is a fair way using "full small seats in higher classes" and using small planes to occupy slot. At least, these companies will be punished to pay very, very heavy fine, or to be cease to run in several months or years, Just for FAIR. 

But in this game, I suppose maybe the best way is.....to restart these companies. Hey, that is NOT the first time they use this "BUSINESS strategy." If it is really a good strategy, how did ES fail in late servers? 

THIS time is a good period to prevent it will happen in NEXT gameworld, if there is no any claim to show "FAIR", every users will operate this "Business strategy" in next server, and,

This game will be destroy, by this "Business strategy" and the AS team has no any way to maintain "Fair".

15

Guys, I think that the main message form the other players is; Quit using loopholes, you take the fun out of it for the other 95% of the players.

Please(!), use a normal airline strategy so we can ALL enjoy this great simulation. THat is all "we" ask I guess...

16

And that is the opinion of the team too ;)

17

I understand that some of the accused players are frustrated, but in the end, its an airline simulation game, not just a management game where your goal is to achieve max profite, and block the fun for others. 

AS team, might it be possible to, in the future, have a different plane rating for each country? for example, in Russia they wont care about flying an AN-148, in the US however, that wont work...

Enjoy the 2nd Xmas day all :)

18

Guys, I think that the main message form the other players is; Quit using loopholes, you take the fun out of it for the other 95% of the players.

Please(!), use a normal airline strategy so we can ALL enjoy this great simulation. THat is all "we" ask I guess...

Couldn't agree more.

19

Guys, I think that the main message form the other players is; Quit using loopholes, you take the fun out of it for the other 95% of the players.

Please(!), use a normal airline strategy so we can ALL enjoy this great simulation. THat is all “we” ask I guess…

nobody would take issue with what you said, but to achieve this, you are asking others to stop doing what is highly profitable for them, and persuasion or pleading simply won’t work.

20

e1902.png

Here is an example of using standard seats on business class in real world while charging 3x the price.

This applies to all Dash 8s, CRJs and EMBs in their fleet.

As we can see, this strategy is used in the real world by many major airlines, even passengers may not like it.

And AGAIN: What kind of aircraft is this!?!?!

What route will it be flying?? Surely not London/Heathrow to New York/JFK!!!!

It is totally realistic that on short haul flights Lufthansa is operating that way since a lot of passengers transfer from/to laung haul flights with a PROPER business config and NO airline works with that system on a wide body.

381 Slim line BUSINESS CLASS seats in a 787 on a 12 hour flight!?!?! Come on guys...Dont argue with real world examples since your airlines lack most of the real world!!

And as mentioned in thge other threat: The business passengers in this Lufthansa config have DOUBLE the space than an economy passenger! So... where for God´s sake do you match a realistic scenario!?!