Sorry for bothering you with my useless comments. Strange that I played Peru on another server and found many international routes which filled my planes very well.
I might have been just lucky on all servers I am playing. Good luck in Mexico!
I guess that wasn't a server where you joined in late and had to compete against extremely established enthusiasts with unlimited money.
Again you just show you didn't read comments properly nor do you take your time to look at a specific airline before you write whatever flows through your mind, not even mention at which server your Peruvian airline is so others could take a look themselves. That's actually sad.
It shows that you are not reading comments. I wrote "I played Peru", so this indicates that I am not playing any longer. The server was Pearls - if you don't know this server, there is an airline group with more than 10.000 planes, operating in USA and worldwide. I joined in very late, yes.
I am also playing on Idlewild so I know your companies there. But why should I look at a specific airline of yours? Did I miss something? I gave my opinion how to find good routes - and wished you good luck in Mexico, where you bought an existing company which should run very well.
And now back to the original topic. :)
It's part of the original topic to say that even real life methods (like using routes that are flown in reality) don't work on some old servers as there are too many alternative routes established. Routes that would not have been established in first place when there would have been an original airline before.
It's part of the original topic to say that even real life methods (like using routes that are flown in reality) don't work on some old servers as there are too many alternative routes established. Routes that would not have been established in first place when there would have been an original airline before.
I think there may be something into this statement. On one of the servers I play on, there was a large airline in Peru that liquidated some time ago. Since then, nobody was able to establish a large and profitable airline in Peru, most likely also due to fact that passengers then got filtered out by other airlines, large airports within south America are now slot restricted, etc. So there may be a grain of truth in what you say.
if you want a fair and constructice discussion, you might want to stop with talkin down to those that actually bothered to answer.
and I, too, think such a tool would not give you the information that you are hoping for. passenger “demand” would depend on time of flight, fligh rating, potential connections of you and all your partner plus the same for everyone else. only one minute later the prognosed “demand” would be invalid. same goes for one minute after you receive the report because changing one factor (not necessarily by you but by someone on a route not even connected to the city pair in question) would changee entire thing as now more seats/ratings/etc might be available through just any of the 1200 holdings.
the tool so often requested might sound great but is completely useless beyond a ten second look-out
And exactly that's why it would add to the game. It would give an estimate the second it is created but of course doesn't take away all the responsibility before actually creating a route.
That's also realistic, as real life studies often get obsolete due to such things, too, but still the general idea ("people want to fly to Australia" / "People don't want to fly to France at all" / "Vatry is not a market that could fill even a Dash8") stays valid.
but tell me, the information "10.000 people want to fly to Paris from your hub every week" is supposed to help you how? Let's say for another route, it says 800 people. So you would go for Paris, right?
well, unfortunately, every one flies there. To that other destination, no one flies. well, you'd never use that money on the small farm track, anyhow.
and as has been pointed out, big players would simply research every route. some one suggested limitations, but you can't call for realism on the one hand and completely throw it overboard on the other. so how do you make this tool accessible to small airlines without giving too big of an advantage to the big airlines?
and if the level of information is like "the general idea ("people want to fly to Australia" / "People don't want to fly to France at all" / "Vatry is not a market that could fill even a Dash8")" then that level of information is already available. check wikipedia and the ORS. is a certain relation constantly booked full by the competitors? well chances are, there is a demand. they fly empty? well, chances are, so will you.
and before you ask, yes, I have been (and actually am right now) operating an airline on an established game world on a competitive market.
I agree with Yukawa. The main routes are already known and for an established airline, it is easy to find the good ones (by either research and try and error).
Small companies don't have the money for try and error. Even with a tool which would show good routes, another airline will see the same information - who will win the race? The big airline.
Playing on a new server and in a new world is completely different, everybody has the same options. Demand is very high on 90% of all possible routes - and everybody is still hunting for the known gold routes.
I also guess that the data cannot be valid the second it would be available. But I am not into programming so this in just my guess.
@ yukawa
I suggested limitations and I explained how and _why_.
Again: Wikipedia is no reliable source at least for several markets! I gave examples for this. Also the markets I talk about often have no or no useful ORS entry.
I guess basic problems is you (guys) think always big about the US and Europe and perfectly available data. It's about countries where no other big(ger) guy exists and where reliable data might either not avialable or not be in the game, be it as the world changed fast (like LIM or SCL) since research was done or research for AS was not done properly, maybe because of lack of data.
does Venezuela count?
Chile is also possible. I played also on Pearls, I had more than 100 planes, good loads with all big companies around me. But yes, as I have written in my PM: these markets are limited and I lost the fun there. So I moved to other places. (By the way, I never play in Europe and it is my first time now in the USA).
Syriana, take a look to the leading company on Aspern in Peru with 188 (61 x 787) planes, doing pretty well. I don't know his secret but the owner is a very nice guy - perhaps it is worth to contact him?
Thanks, I made some research on the other servers a while ago and figured his secret is he must not share parts of Peru with other airlines, especially from Ecuador. :) Nothing I can do about it, I may actually drop him a PM. Again, thanks for your help, highscore.
Some places actually offer very good kind of public and free data - like the US and Europe. Mexico shares also some interesting data. Of course it's in Spanish. However, other places don't offer such data. I know one of them is Peru as I had struggle there and I guess it's communist Venezuela because bad Gringos could use that against them. Or notice air traffic has dropped?
Still as a new player with limited funds I lack something that at least tells me if something might be an idea or not. My route from LIM to SYD for example was a huge gamble as 787 are very expensive and I just figured it's a market gap. It's doing ok, not too good, not bad enough to close it down, especially since I'm still in an expansion phase.
So, to end this thread for me: I would like to see a very limited possibility to get information about possible routes. One check per week per account, for example, and only for own country/5th freedom space to cancel out big old money airlines. Such a thing would have helped me massively in my first game(s) I still play!
Again: Wikipedia is no reliable source at least for several markets! I gave examples for this. Also the markets I talk about often have no or no useful ORS entry.
I guess basic problems is you (guys) think always big about the US and Europe and perfectly available data. It's about countries where no other big(ger) guy exists and where reliable data might either not avialable or not be in the game, be it as the world changed fast (like LIM or SCL) since research was done or research for AS was not done properly, maybe because of lack of data.
since you mentioned Peru a couple of times:
It took me longer to find this thread again to post my reply than it took me to find statistics for Lima, Peru including airline name, destination, aircraft type being used, average number of seats available and average daily frequency. How much more do you want or need?
I only see two possible answers to why you could not find anything....
Two things amuse me about all these so-called 'experienced players' - they all have big egos and a selfishness that is unparalleled! I don't by any measure consider myself an inexperienced player - I excel whenever and wherever I choose to and quite honestly, I feel there are few who could have anything useful to show me that I don't already know (either in real aviation world or in this gaming environment). As a matter of fact, I recently joined a gaming world for the simple reason that I wanted to take on and spank two of such so-called experienced players out of my adopted gaming domain - they both had big and successful airlines (in USA and Germany) and felt they could just create a small airline in some other part of the world and dominate - they were in for a surprise! I find it a baffling thing however, when such people assume that the circumstance being experienced in the game is exactly like it is in the real world and therefore they expect that you can simply use real world situations to resolve it. Nothing could be more misleading! For one, the real world is a lot more complicated and there are much greater considerations and forces at work such as political consideration, government controls and others. You may sign a Yamoussoukro agreement for instance, but that still does not permit an African Airline to just unilaterally tackle another nation's airspace. In the real world, leasing an aircraft is not quite so easy and straightforward nor are supplies so endless. There is a whole lot of differences which could not be simulated in any reasonable way and for anyone to just think that a visit to some real-life statistics website would give answers to gaming issues is simply naive! Perhaps it works for USA, Europe and many other large nations, however if you are playing in the more discreet parts of the world, there are many more challenges which you have to confront on your own and which the so-called real life statistics are unavailable or are simply not helpful for.
All that was proposed in this thread was a single game world with a useful Route Analysis and Research Tool - why is that such a problem for you guys? What are you so afraid of? It is kind of perplexing for me to see guys boast about using statistics, data and analysis from real life websites (which may or may not have any true correlation to the gaming demand structure here) and yet the very same people are opposed to any suggestion that the game should consider having an in-house research tool! So,in other words, these people prefer to appear knowledgeable in the game world whereas all they are really doing is using an outside tool which could have been provided in-house. I guess it makes them feel special and intelligent. The ultimate test for such a tool - to know whether it will turn out to be a game spoiler or a very useful enhancer is to try it out in a limited fashion. This is why I suggested a test run in a single game world which may be time limited or something similar. If it turns out that such a tool diminishes player experience, it would simply end with that experiment. If, on the other hand, it turns out that the tool (when properly implemented) actually serves to enhance and enliven the game for players, then the whole gaming community can be thankful for it. Why go searching every flight stats site on the globe when the realities in the game might be quite different for some locations? Whether you got your information from FlightStats.com or you simply researched on an in-house flight research tool, what the heck is the difference?? It is all ego if you ask me.
I can only speak for myself, but the references to the availability of statistics were only directed at the claim that for example countries such as Peru there were no comprehensive statistics - which isn't true. It takes about one minute to find them.
I complete agree, that real world statistics are not the solution. However, since the AS traffic demand is somewhat based on real life traffic statistics, real world statistics might give you a hint to routes that you could try.
Regarding the proposed tool, I don't think you have to be afraid of anything. Btw, I don't really see how someone with too big of an ego would be afraid of that as he/she would hardly feel threadened by such a tool.
Some people, clearly including me, simply do not like the proposal and therefor argue against it. You, in turn, may or may not like our arguments. But there is no need to make it about ego or who got the bigger - how to be politically correct here? - ovaries. I don't feel such a tool is necessary or beneficial to the game. And I also believe, the little time available for game developtment should not be used on such a tool.
And by the way, ....what I am proposing is a very solid solution that is based on the demand structure of each game world rather than a mindless mimic of real life situations which may not have any correlation with reality. What do I mean by that?? Well, ....in real life, there is real demand and then there is a supply permutation based on the reality of that demand and the position of the suppliers of the service. Most times, when you research routes using a flight stats website, what it shows you is the routes used by existing airlines which are serving the location however, what it does NOT show you is the actual destination demand! Let me give an example; If you take a look at Lagos, Nigeria (for instance), those websites could show you frequent flights to London, Atlanta, New York, Dubai, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Istanbul and Addis Ababa etc. What the statistics does not tell you is the actual demand structure (end destination). In other words, the routes shown are merely a reflection of the routes used by Airlines serving the Nigerian market - mostly done by using their own home-base as a hub!. Are there many Nigerians going to Amsterdam as an end point?? No! Is there a demand for Istanbul as a destination? No, not really! The popularity of the Lagos - Amsterdam route is merely a reflection of the success of KLM in connecting other destinations to and from NIgeria. The same situation applies to Istanbul, Frankfurt and Addis Ababa. However when you are talking about London and Dubai, it is a different kettle of fish - most of it (not all) is direct destination demand. Talking about the LOS - USA routes however brings another paradigm. The JFK and Houston route is mainly direct demand whereas the Atlanta demand is based on connectivity. There is probably more demand for Lagos in Maryland/DC/Virginia than anywhere else in the continental USA and yet there is no direct flight to this location simply because the Airlines servicing Lagos already have established hubs such as Houston and Atlanta! Another good example is Toronto, Canada - there is a sizable demand for flights to Lagos and Africa however you will not see any direct flights on the flight stat websites simply because there is no airline servicing the route directly. Ethiopian Airlines, Maroc and host of European and Middle Eastern airlines do service the Canada - Africa route through connecting routes however that can never be seen in the so-called Flight stats website.
What am I saying? I am simply saying that most times, the knowledge passed by the flight stats website is really useless information as far as demand is concerned! This is precisely why airlines spend money to engage the services of a market research firm. Demand is what airlines need to know, NOT flight pattern. What you see on flight stat websites is merely flight patterns (a permutation of supply) which does not reveal true demand. You can see flights going to Madrid or Frankfurt, but is that the true destination or is it just a hub?? As a business, you want to know the true nature of demand (demand structure) and then your business can make a decision to service it based on your own unique circumstance! In a game world on A/S, there may not be any major airline based in Amsterdam (mimicking KLM), does that now mean that there will still be a lot of demand for LOS-AMS route?(assuming the game demand structure followed the Flight stats). Lagos demand is true demand - it does not matter whether KLM fills the niche or not - it could very well have been Finnair! (doesn’t matter to the customer in Lagos).
In my proposal, what I am suggesting is that the Research Tool simple give demand between two countries or nations. How that demand is met is completely up to the players! In other words, demand between nation A and nation B is X. How X is dissolved and permutated is completely up to the players and the game dynamics. An Airline from nation C could steal 70% of the market by simply connecting nation A with nation B via nation C! (precisely what KLM, Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines are doing in the Lagos example). The mistake most of the so called ‘experienced’ players make is to assume that the flights shown on the flight stats website has anything to do with what the real demand is - No, it does not! (at least. not directly in most cases). Flight stats only show the routes used by Airlines which ultimately have nothing to do with the game-world because the airlines in the game-world may be in completely different locations!
Fair enough to ask for this tool.
I still believe that the data you are looking for is available in other form. Not only via flightstat websites but also via cultural background knowledge (languages, cities, historical reasons). Researching these reasons made most of my setups somehow succeed... Also I am for sure not an "experienced" player and not claiming to know exactly how it works.
I cannot see how a Research Tool should reflect all these small reasons why demand between A and B is X. But again, I am not a programmer and don't know the dynamics AS is using.
again, I can only speak for myself and don't want to speak for anyone else:
I understood your proposal the first time as well. And I fully agree with your assestment regarding real life statistics and the correlation to AS. That does not change my presented arguments and opinion against introducing such a tool.
It's not that I don't see the appeal of the information you are hoping to gain throughout such a tool, however, it's not only about the tool in itself, but also about investing resources into developing it and game balance. But I would only repeat myself and arguments by others by outlining them again.
anyhow, in the end, all our argumentation doesn't really matter. It is up to the team to decide whether or not they want to develop that game this way. As far as I am aware, it has been the team's position in the past not to make any such data available (as in the end, why have a tool? why not get an excel sheet with all the demand that gets distributed every demand calculation from every airport?) I am not a member of the team and I am certainly not speaking for them, but it appears to be their position that such a tool is simply not wanted and that the trial and error principle is.
Highscore,
I don’t know the dynamics being used in A/S too and I certainly don’t expect them to reveal that. Like you said, I usually simply use broad knowledge and cultural insight and indices such as mutual languages, cultural background, political history, Ethnicity, Religion, geographical proximity and other affiliations as a basis. There are some obvious routes for any country regardless, however there are others which in A/S require a fair amount of guesswork. The situation is completely different when speaking of US, EU or China simply because of the size and scale of demand in these regions - in any of these, you can expect sizable demand between any two major cities. I do experience a fair bit of success even in difficult domains using my own permutations and i will like to believe that I am cool with or without the tool - I merely suggested it to give us something different and exciting to play with. Who knows, it might turn out better than we thought or it might add up to nought,