Seat space

Hi,

some time ago I posted a message explaining my doubts about the effectivity of the seat space rating. During the past weeks I have done a few tests that confirm my doubts…

I tried several cabin configurations on otherwise identical flights (same route, same plane, same on-board service, same price, and so on). The planes are Dash Q400A with economy seats. The results are…

65 seats: one green bar for seat space

53 seats: one green bar for seat space

41 seats: two green bars for seat space

In the real world the Q400A typically offers seventy something seats. Let’s say 18 rows of crappy seats and a seating space of 29 inch.

If you assume the 65 seater gives a seating space of 30 inch, removing three rows (12 seats) offers the passengers a luxurious 36 inch. I don’t know of any airlines that offer more than 36 inch seating space in economy class. But in our virtual world that still only gives you one green bar. Removing six rows (24 seats) offers the passengers about 48 inch of seating space but it only gives you one extra green bar.

Given the fact that real airlines offer between 29 and 36 inch of seating space, 29 inch should give you one green bar and 36 inch should give you the maximum of five green bars. If you have to remove 30% of the seats in order to get one extra green bar, this option is not working properly.

And then it even gets worse. I was told that removing seats does have an effect, even if it doesn’t show on the flight rating of your flight information page. So I checked the ORS. After all, the ORS decides whether or not the passengers prefer your flights. And the results: plane one gets a rating of 77, plane two gets a rating of 77 and plane three gets a rating of… 77.

Instead of not working properly, it seems not to work at all.

Maybe I am wrong. But I shall need more than “it works but you can’t see the effect” to convince me.

Jan

in dont know any airline who gives you 36 inches in economy

best i know are about 33 inches and worst about 29

but I also never care the seat space in the game and try to use the 100% fully

i don’t think the seat space calculation works correctly, don’t worry about it

make always 100%, it’s better and get the green bars elsewhere

I think on the to-do-list should be a hull remade of the seating concept.

e.g. Actually we can just make bad seats with ~30" pitch but why shouldn’t we have the same seats with lether. We can just have lether seats with ~32" pitch, but what if we wanna have with 30"? But again, I think this will come in near-AS-future (means 1.8 or 1.9 (2015) :D)

the green rating somewhere is truely acrimonious.:blink:

I don’t think that simply removing the seats makes that much of a difference. I am also not sure if the game even has the concept of pitch, maybe when you simply remove the seats it assumes there are a few rows of empty space in the back instead of considering an increased pitch. What does help with ORS and seat ratings are seat upgrades… going from std to econ to ecoplus, sort of like seating for low cost, full service and Premium economy. I completely agree with FENCC01 that future versions should allow more customizations and options for the interiors so that we can pick seats and seating config separately.

Hi Ivan,

removing seats should make a difference - that’s why the option exists in the game - but it doesn’t.

I operate several 737-500’s. They are out of production but still widely used. The game punishes these planes as far as image is concerned. In the game, seat space is an image factor. So removing one or two rows of seats should improve image.

And what frustrates me most of all, is the lack of response from Martin. He wrote the game, he knows the flaws and shortcomings. If he doesn’t, he should check it when a player mentions a problem. I have mentioned this problem ages ago on the old forum, and the only reaction I got from AS was "it works but you don’t see it". Well, I am not a religious man. I don’t believe what I don’t see. Unless it is explained to me.

Jan

I believe that certain types of aircraft are a factor (in real life) for pax bookings but the exact model or version is hardly ever noticed by anyone apart from aviation enthusiasts like us. Age in real life bookings is never known by the pax and if the maintenance and cabin up-gradations have been done it is practically impossible to reasonably guess the correct age unless that type of aircraft has been extinct for a while. Have you tried leasing a new 737-700 and have similar seats and prices and seen the ORS rating diff? If the penalty for using older 737-500s is only a bit then it might be okay but if it is significant then I believe the game could be a little too biased against older aircraft.

I agree that removing a few rows should improve your pax’s ratings (significantly actually) but as I said the game might not have the concept of seat pitch/legroom programmed into it and hence it is unable to reward appropriately in the ratings.

Hi Ivan,

I agree with you. Passengers don’t know how old the planes are. If the cabin has been refitted, they will think it’s a modern plane. Or perhaps they may notice some retrofitted winglets on a 737-400 and think the plane is new. Besides, the age of a pressurized plane is calculated in cycles (when you talk about the airframe). When did KLM fase out it’s 747 combi’s ? How old were they ? But KLM is a reputable airliner so passengers didn’t think about it. And those who knew probably thought the planes were only used on long haul routes and had made less cycles than most younger planes.

So the game is indeed a bit strict when it comes to age. But that is not the problem. Everybody knows it and the bad rating is clearly visible. What bothers me is that seat spacing is supposed to be a way to improve the rating, that seat spacing is mentioned on the flight information page (under image rating), but that it does not seem to work and that remarks fall on deaf ears.

Jan

From what I understand, the seat spacing is incorporated into the selection of the seat type. Thus:

																		 A standard seat = 29" pitch


																		 An economy seat = 31" pitch


																		 An economy plus seat = 33-34"

I imagine that the "description" of the seat type is intended to give the novice player a general idea in cabin layouts, a little common sense and you will figure out what seats you need in that plane. For example, I use the Eco Plus seat for business class on flights under 3 hrs. Sue me!

Hi,

I don’t know if the programmers of this game assume that more comfortable seats have thicker cushions, or offer more leg room :)

Anyway, there is a separate option that allows to put less seats in a plane. Less than the type of seats normally allows and it offers the passengers more leg room. The flight information page (the " flight rating" tab) shows you the rating of the on-board service, the price, type of seats, the mood of the staff, and so on. Seat space is the rating that should change if you remove a row (or percentage) of seats.

Feel free to remove two rows of seats in one of your planes. In reality that should increase the pitch enough to show a result on the flight rating page. Then please inform us how much your rating improved.

I hope it works for you.

Jan

hm - intersting that this old issue is comming up again and still is misuinderstandable.

But starting from the scratch …

Each seat has certain area it needs. That means the seat itself to fulfill all function. If you want to place a seat with option to make it a flat bed, you need more space than a low-cost wooden seat. This area needed is also a matter of width not only the pitch.

Now lets say you put your aircraft full with the simpliest seats. There will be a minimum pitch of course. If you use less seats, the pitch increases. The same using the best possible seat - even though there is a kind of pitch included into the seat already. But if you have a A319 with 50 first class seats or if you simply put 10 first class seats into it, it makes an difference. The seats will be places all over the plane to allow a maximum pitch.

Regarding the green bars - one bar is not equal to one bar. Behind each bar is a branch of numeric values. So using 90% of the possible seat means a better rating in this topic AND in the overall rating. It’s not that much like having better seats due to the included pitch in each seat but it’s a little bonus you may have compared to a competitor.

From what I see in the game - the more of a "premium" seat you use the higher your overall image and price worthiness ratings are.

Which makes sense.

Remember that seat pitch is not the only value to consider, I think. What about width? Does that play a role? We just do not know.

I know - and I answered it before ;)

This is not the result I get…

I used a Dash when I tested because I had several planes on the same route and they had a low rating on the ORS (it’s hard to improve a rating of 100 :wink:

The plane was equipped with economy seats only (after a few tests with my usual mix of economy and business, I thought perhaps the system could not cope with mixed cabins).

You can put a maximum of 65 economy seats in a Dash 400. I first removed 12 seats. In a Dash, that means removing 3 rows of seats. No result whatsoever. Then I made another cabin configuration with 41 economy seats. That means removing 6 rows of seats, or one third of the seats. And then I finally got a second green bar. I thought hurray, it works.

Until I had a look at the ORS. Three Dashes, same route, same price… Same everything except one of the planes only has 41 seats. But all three still have exactly the same low ORS rating of 77.

Test it yourself and tell me the result. Until then, allow me to say that this feature should have a big sign that says "out of order".

Jan

tststs, you see it works well

you remove one third and get a second green bar

remove half and you get the third

remove two third you will get the fourth

and when you remove all rows but one, then you have the highest rating of 5 green bars

ok, may be it works a little bit different from their intention, but it works

P.S. not look too much to the ORS

i’ve lousy ratings, because i have a cheap charly airline, but the folks like it and my planes are 96% full :D

This is what sk said:

With that, he means that just because you see 1 bar for both of your cabins, doesn’t mean the rating is the same. It works the same way as the ORS rating: Every block represents 20 ‘points’. Every 20-point-block that you use is displayed. If the rating for your first cabin is 5 points, and the second is 15 points, you don’t see the difference visually, but your rating is still 3 times as high.

That being said, if you do plan on only using 80% of the available space, it’s a better idea to switch to the next best seats and use 100%. On a 73G, you can fit a maximum of 149 seats. Removing 25 or more seats to get a better rating won’t have the same effect as switching to the next highest seat type.

So, to conclude, forget seat pitch as your primary means to get an edge over competitors. Instead use the better seats to achieve a better rating. You can fit more passengers while achieving a higher rating to boot.

I understood perfectly well what SK wrote, Tim.

It hardly matters whether the two green bars stand for a rating of 20 or a rating of 39. If you remove one third of the seats, the rating should be 99.

I made another cabin configuration, with 4 seats. Only one row of seats in a whole plane. Then I get a rating of three green bars.

And even with 4 seats, the ORS rating did not change at all. Still exactly the same ORS rating of 77/77.

I did not start this topic to discuss the different ways to increase my flight ratings. I don’t understand why everybody keeps explaining there are also other ways to get an edge over the competition ? I only want to point out that one of the features does not work.

So explain me where I made a mistake or admit that the "seat space" function doesn’t work.

Jan

Two possibilities: 1st you already havethe highest possible rating or 2nd you are still looking in former flight booking?

Hi SK,

three identical planes on the same route. Only one difference: the seating. One uses 100% of the available space, one has 41 seats, one has 4 seats.

Why do you ask if the plane perhaps has the highest possible rating ? I have already mentioned the ORS rating in three postings. So for the fourth time, the ORS rating is 77 with an overall rating of also 77.

Or do you refer to the chapter "image rating" on the flight rating page ? That is not maxed out either. It’s a Dash, remember ? So only 3 green bars for the type of plane. Anyway, the 3 planes have an overal rating of 4 green bars for image.

And believe me, I have checked and double checked the ORS rating. Besides, the plane with 41 seats has been flying around like that for several weeks now. Would be difficult to find the old seating on the ORS…

"Dead parrot sketch"Anyone seen the Monty Python ? This is getting to the stage where I say: the seat space tool is dead. It kicked it’s clogs. It has parted from life. It has gone to meet its maker. It is pushing up the daisies. It is no more. It is deceased.

Jan