Was it fair? Please give me answers..

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21

@ sharpking

On the snapshot we took and we are talking about 4-5 weeks into the game you had a safty deposit (deposits for Aircrafts of 76 mio AS) and you had a weekly Profit of about 25 mio A$. And you are telling us honestly that your planes where parked on the tarmec for refurbishment? So how did you generate a Profit of 25 mio per week? How Did you generate 76 Mio for aircraft deposits if you are not exploiting the seat bug. You had been informed and had still planes flying with SlimHD and/or Standard Seats in ALL Classes. The  UAB and team  then decieded to reset your company and that was done.

22

Is it fair? I believe it is fair. Is it fair to claim fairness for youself but using bugs before? I don't think so. It's interesting to see that the people who don't care for fairness call for it the loudest.

It's interesting to read this. Do I intend to call it louder? I took one week to communicate with your AirlineSim Support privately to seek the answers. But what I got? Your AirlineSim Support replied me,

"I definetely do not have the time to discuss this one by one"

If your Support does not have time to discuss it, I hope the post in the forum will help me to get some answers. 

23

So let me understand you correctly. You stumbled across AS at the happy coincidence of a new gameworld starting, and your first thought was to exploit a brand new feature of the game so that you achieve an advantage over hundreds of other players. Most "new" players seem to be concerned with the type of aircraft they might buy, the routes they might fly and how to schedule a flight to see if any passengers book it. But you were different. You were able to spot a bug and exploit it without the rest of the learning curve that other new players experience?

 

I do not know why you doubt it. My data is there. It’s easy to prove. I joined this game at gatow in last October. It was a big challenge for me to learn how to play and how to survive in a mature sever. In November, when the new server started, I moved my company to the new server. Actually, I did not invent this strategy by myself. For a new player, the best way to play is to imitate others. After I found my competitors were quite successful, I copied their strategy. Besides this strategy, I also tried other strategies. So I had planes with different configurations. Some were with small seats, and some were with better seats. It was natural to try different strategies in a sandbox game and explore the best one.

 

All of the answers are here, in this thread and many others that are similar. I think the point you might be misunderstanding is the spirit of the game. Most players consider that filling business and first with the smallest seats available to gain an unintended advantage, is not in the spirit of the game. You might disagree. And that is probably the end of it.

Do you read my thread carefully? Do you know what I am seeking for? I was punished by using illegal seat configuration on Jan 4. But, I did so was because after I asked from AirlineSim Support, they permitted to do so. About the spirit you mentioned, it is another thing. But, the AS Team must let everyone know this spirit before they used this spirit to punish players. As I said before, are there some ways to let a new player know this spirit? 

24

 

I do not know why you doubt it. My data is there. It’s easy to prove. I joined this game at gatow in last October. It was a big challenge for me to learn how to play and how to survive in a mature sever. In November, when the new server started, I moved my company to the new server. Actually, I did not invent this strategy by myself. For a new player, the best way to play is to imitate others. After I found my competitors were quite successful, I copied their strategy. Besides this strategy, I also tried other strategies. So I had planes with different configurations. Some were with small seats, and some were with better seats. It was natural to try different strategies in a sandbox game and explore the best one.

 

Do you read my thread carefully? Do you know what I am seeking for? I was punished by using illegal seat configuration on Jan 4. But, I did so was because after I asked from AirlineSim Support, they permitted to do so. About the spirit you mentioned, it is another thing. But, the AS Team must let everyone know this spirit before they used this spirit to punish players. As I said before, are there some ways to let a new player know this spirit? 

Dude. I'm sorry but you admit to cheating. Try again after starting over, its just a game. 

25

@ sharpking

On the snapshot we took and we are talking about 4-5 weeks into the game you had a safty deposit (deposits for Aircrafts of 76 mio AS) and you had a weekly Profit of about 25 mio A$. And you are telling us honestly that your planes where parked on the tarmec for refurbishment? So how did you generate a Profit of 25 mio per week? How Did you generate 76 Mio for aircraft deposits if you are not exploiting the seat bug. You had been informed and had still planes flying with SlimHD and/or Standard Seats in ALL Classes. The  UAB and team  then decieded to reset your company and that was done.

Thx! At least, I think I got some answers. But, there are still more questions.

1. From your explanation, the main reason to reset my company is because UAB and team thought I "had still planes flying with SlimHD and/or Standard Seats in ALL Classes". But, as I asked before, please tell me which EMB-195s were still set in SlimHD and/or Standard Seats in ALL Classes on Jan 4?

2. It seems the high profit is a sin. I was guilty because I had high profit. But, I want to ask which is illegal, having high profit ratio or using small seats? You have the data. You could check how much profit I got in that week when my company was reset. At that time, did I have any planes with small seats? No. No one! Actually, my majority planes provided better seats than my competitors. Most of my business seats could get 4 bars in ORS. But, how much profit I got in that week? 75 mio AS$ and 61% profit ratio (if I remembered correctly). The profit ratio was even higher than the week I had some planes with small seats. As I said before, there are many strategies to have high profit, not only using the small seats bug. It is ridiculous to judge a company whether it uses small seats or not only by the profit.

If the AS Team thinks the high profit ratio is a problem, please explicitly define how much profit ratio is legal and how much is not!!

3. Your explanation gave me an impression that the UAB and team did not investigate a lot but made judgement on deductions. Your logic seems that I had high profit, so I was using small seats. But, when you made decisions, did you know I was quitting all my planes with small seats and had contacted the AirlineSim Support? Did you know my majority of my profit was not from the small seats configuration?

I would like to quote one question I asked in my first thread,

"The companies in the AirlineSim just like lives in the real world. Was it fair to sentence a company to death but not give it a chance to defend itself?"

26

Dude. I'm sorry but you admit to cheating. Try again after starting over, its just a game. 

Come on! What is cheating? When you a new player, do you know what is a bug what is not? Is it still a cheating to use a strategy before it is defined as a bug? Everybody knows that "there exists no crime and no punishment without a pre-existing penal law appertaining".

Yes. It's just a game. But, I also want some answers. Some answers for me but also for you and other players. Today, it's me to be reset. Tomorrow, it will be you (maybe only because you have high profit).

27

well AS team warning you for seats and givu you time and still you did not make reconfiguration

case closed

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28

 After I received the fair-play email, I immediately reconfigured  2 EMBs to better seats

Excuse me for not reading the full story behind this, but this implies that you did take advantage of the seating problem, resulting in an unfair advantage-The first e-mail was sent out at least a month after the start of the server, by this time we had airlines with hundreds of aircraft (not to to name any) that had done a similar strategy.

To conclude, nobody had forced players to use slimline + business, they had done it with the intent of gaining an advantage-so I think it's justified that these airlines were reset.

Completely fair? Possibly not, but it was a much better alternative than letting this problem grow even larger. 

29

Excuse me for not reading the full story behind this, but this implies that you did take advantage of the seating problem, resulting in an unfair advantage-The first e-mail was sent out at least a month after the start of the server, by this time we had airlines with hundreds of aircraft (not to to name any) that had done a similar strategy.

To conclude, nobody had forced players to use slimline + business, they had done it with the intent of gaining an advantage-so I think it's justified that these airlines were reset Completely fair? Possibly not, but it was a much better alternative than letting this problem grow even larger. 

I voted for you so I am now your constituency and that means my voice now must (should) be heard :)

I tried to refrain from participating this thread but I will chime in with one thing:

Nobody "forced" him to use slimline or standard in business/first, but also nobody ever said that such seat should not be used.  agree with the OP on one thing: If something is not clearly stated in the rules, it can hardly be punished later. There is such thing in law as concept of rules against reatroactivity:

One widely accepted principle of ... law is the rule against retroactivity, which prohibits the imposition of ex post facto laws (i.e., laws that would allow an individual to be punished for conduct that was not criminal at the time it was carried out). The rule restricts the authority of judges to declare new offenses (though not necessarily to expand the scope of old ones by interpretation).

Claims that such undue advantage as using slimline HD etc was not maybe against the rules but against the spirit of the game also does not stand ground. How is a player who has been playing for 1-2 months gasp the complete spirit of game in AirlineSim as opposed to a player who has been playing for a year (or years)? And after the player sees this from AirlineSim marketing page, "AirlineSim is a detailed economic simulation that gives you the opportunity to control nearly every aspect of your airline’s operations." how they are supposed to know, just coming into game, what is frown upon by the community (aka against the spirit of game) and what is not, if there is nothing stated in the rules/wiki/conditions of the game etc.  That would lead to one and only conclusion, new players asking AS support for their approval on ANY trivial thing, including  "is it OK to fly Russian jets in USA", or "is it OK to fly into such-and-such airport if there is no such service IRL", or "can I just have a one-class config, because the default prices show 3 classes", or "what about if I do not offer drinks in business class because IRL everyone in business class gets their drinks". Those might seem trivial questions, but they ALL affect profitability. Technically speaking, decisions based on all those questions could provide undue advantage to a particular airline. HOW DOES A NEW PLAYER, which OP was at the time, IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW ALL WRITTEN AND UNWRITTEN RULES?

In the world, legal systems are divided into code law and common law. In the code law, rules and regulations are written (codified). as well as punishments for breaking them. What is not prohibited is permitted and nobody can be judged for doing what is not written in rules/regulations/laws as written. On the other side of spectrum is the common law system, where rules are regulations are many times based on social norms. Common law is defined as "The system of laws originated and developed in England and based on court decisions, on the doctrines implicit in those decisions, and on customs and usages rather than on codified written laws".

Games are usually based on principles extrapolated from codified law. Clear set of rules and regulations. I we want to venture into common law doctrine in AirlineSim (e.g. against the spirit of the game), AirlineSim staff must then be prepared for an avalanche of emails and support requests from (new) players asking about all those trivial things I mentioned before.... so that common law is not broken in AirlineSim. The "system" must be based either on codified doctrine rules (rules, regulations, conditions, terms, etc.) or common doctrine rules (socially acceptable behavior, spirit of game, prior decisions, etc). It is not possible to have both in its strictest form. Because having both would result in unprecedented chaos. The color can be either black or white, it cannot be yellow (and no, no grey color allowed).

30

As I stated in a PM to you, Rubio:

If you don't punish or limit those that used the exploit, then you are punishing everyone else on the server.

Imagine a foot race between ten people that is 10 kilometers long. At the beginning of the race, one person out of the ten uses a jet-pack to launch himself four kilometers down the race course. Now, it wasn't specifically against the rules of the race to use a jet-pack at the time, but because it was used, the one person has a very distinct advantage. You cannot then just say, "Well, just keep going and you can't use the jet-pack anymore." The other nine people that started the race, in good faith, are being penalized because they cannot get as far as the jet-pack user near as quickly.

Then, as I explained, you add in the fact that AS has more of an exponential growth rate than a linear growth rate, especially at the beginning. The further you get from the starting line, the faster you can run. The jet-pack user would then be running much faster than those that are still at the starting line, and the distance between them would continue to grow, even after jet-packs were outlawed.

31

@caithes:

I would use a different example in the race:

The majority using a very plushy sneakers during the race... they are very comfortable but quite heavy and bulky and you cannot move that fast. And a few using a roughed-out, lightweight sneakers which while do not look so plushy from outside, allow you to move faster. :)

Also, my post above was not about economic advantage. Rather, it was more about the "legality". In other words, presence (or lack of) general aspects here which govern and regulate behavior and the code of conduct. Whether such code of conduct is written (rules) or customary (social norms) determines how cases like Aspern HD seating are handled. If it is the former, then everything not allowed must be spelled out and you cannot use retroactivity. If it is the latter, then you cannot expect new players to know-it-all and you also must be prepared to make case-by-case decisions, provide for space to make concessions in case of violation of customary-but-to-new-player-unknown-rule  (aka second chances) AND most importantly solicit affected party's view and take on the case by the form of "statement".

32

Rubio:

It doesn't matter what analogy you use for the race. The fact is, the people using the advantage/exploit/cheat/WHATEVER have a decidedly unfair advantage over those that didn't. Plain and simple.

Legality is a non-issue. This is not a democracy or any kind of representative type of government. The AS team doesn't have to do anything. This is their product, we are paying for it. That doesn't give us a right to tell them how it should be. You don't like it? Don't pay for it. They decide how they want to run their simulation and, frankly, can do whatever the damn well they please. There is no "should". There is no "ought to". We can suggest and complain all we want.

That does not mean I think AS isn't interested in keeping its player-base happy. What I'm saying is AS has decided, with the UAB's okay, that this is what the consequences are. Is it unfortunate? Maybe. The fact that a "new" player is caught along with this... sorry to hear it, but ignorance isn't an excuse. Besides, he said he started playing on Gatow before Aspern started up, so he's not a new player. He's been around, knows the website. So even arguing that point is moot.

33

well AS team warning you for seats and givu you time and still you did not make reconfiguration

case closed

Excuse me for not reading the full story behind this, but this implies that you did take advantage of the seating problem, resulting in an unfair advantage-The first e-mail was sent out at least a month after the start of the server, by this time we had airlines with hundreds of aircraft (not to to name any) that had done a similar strategy.

To conclude, nobody had forced players to use slimline + business, they had done it with the intent of gaining an advantage-so I think it's justified that these airlines were reset.

Completely fair? Possibly not, but it was a much better alternative than letting this problem grow even larger. 

I think I got my ticket because "On our 2nd check on January 4th, the following airlines were found still having standard and/or slimline HD seats in Business and First." It is the announcement of AS team.

Yes. " nobody had forced players to use slimline + business". But, nobody had prevent players from using slimline + business, either! It's the AS team's responsibility to let everybody knows what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, AS team did not do what they should do. But now, it is the AS team to use their fault to punish players!

34

@rubiohiguey2000

Thx for speaking for me! Your comments are answers that I am seeking. Is it fairness? and how should we get fairness?

But ironically, everybody emphasizes "fairness" is very important and is "the spirit of the game", but it seems nobody has interests at talking about how to get the "fairness". Is the fundamental of the regulation of the game based on codified doctrine rules or common doctrine rules? Nobody cares except you. Everybody enjoyed the fact that their competitors were reset. But if the process of AS team decisions is very careless and subject to somebody's favors, everyone will probably be the next victim.

Let me quote what Niemöller said before,

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."

35

Legality is a non-issue. This is not a democracy or any kind of representative type of government. The AS team doesn't have to do anything. This is their product, we are paying for it. That doesn't give us a right to tell them how it should be. You don't like it? Don't pay for it. They decide how they want to run their simulation and, frankly, can do whatever the damn well they please. There is no "should". There is no "ought to". We can suggest and complain all we want.

 

OK, it might be one of the answers I am seeking for. But, I am not sure whether AS team will admit that they are these people that you referred to. Only one kind of government that does not need “There is no “should”. There is no “ought to”.” is the dictatorship. Because the dictator is the “should” and “ought to”. If you told us that AS team rules the game as dictators, and AS team also agreed on it, OK, I think I found the answer to my fairness question. 

That does not mean I think AS isn't interested in keeping its player-base happy. What I'm saying is AS has decided, with the UAB's okay, that this is what the consequences are. Is it unfortunate? Maybe. The fact that a "new" player is caught along with this... sorry to hear it, but ignorance isn't an excuse. Besides, he said he started playing on Gatow before Aspern started up, so he's not a new player. He's been around, knows the website. So even arguing that point is moot.

Ironically, in this post you criticized me that I should know it earlier because I have been around, knows the website. After I read some posts, I found one post you posted before, in the thread,

http://community.airlinesim.aero/topic/5505-new-game-with-old-holes/

You wrote,

There isn't anything wrong with those configurations. They are using the cheapest seats in the tightest formation. There are plenty of other airlines out there that have earned a lot more passengers and money in this short amount of time.

I am curious on what happened on you to change you from thinking "There isn't anything wrong with those configurations. " to writing "even arguing that point is moot."? 

36

@sharpking

AirlineSim is not a goverment. So there is no democracy nor is there a dictatorship and you are also not a king deciding on how everything is going to happen here. We offer you a product where you pay to use it. On registration you confirm to have read the general clauses and game rules (including the preamble). You acknowledge not to have any rights on your account or any ingame virtual good. So yes, if it would be necessary we would have the right to simply delete everything you have built up in AirlineSim. But what is surprising you? That is a common process in all online products. And as long as we have to earn money to pay the server and for developing it further on, we won't delete or reset anyone if we are not convinced that it is better for the community at AirlineSim or the reputation of AirlineSim or demanded by law.

You can compare us with dictatorships as often as you want to, but don't you think that this is awkward?

37

@sk

OK, I think I was indeed surprised at some points,

1. You said my company was still using EMB-195s with small seats on Jan 4. But, after I have asked at least 4-5 times in the emails with AirlineSim Support and here. Nobody gave me an clear answer on which EMB-195s were used and what configuration of these planes were. Is it difficult to give me an answer?

2. BenjaminA330 just told me because I had a high profit so UAB and AS team assumed I still took advantages on planes with small seats. How ridiculous it is! You asked us to play fairly. But, did you think it is fair to make decisions only by assumptions and deductions? And will it be benefit to the reputation of AirlineSim? 

3. As just being discussed in another thread, some configurations even "not bug using" still got punished. So, it arises the questions on what is the real criteria and what is the real motivation of these punishment. I do not want to guess. But, the inconsistence of what AS team has told us and what AS team has done indeed surprised me.

4. Yes. It's your product. You can do what you want and do not need to give us answers. But, I believe there are some other corporates having different corporate values. They care more about legality and ethics, such as the Google's "Don't be evil". 

38

1. The configuration was Slimline HD in business and economy - not sure about the explicite number of seat. IIRC some 40 seats in Business. And sorry, don't have the regs anymore - but also IIRC there still has been 4 aicraft with this confiuration.

2. You received a message at christmas about this which was later, you also asked directly about the 737-600 where I told you that this won't matter if you put them in storage. And after this you still had the EMB in high density configuration - so please don't make us responsible for something you should have known better.

3. The motivation is clear - a fair competition. And using the smallest seats in larger classes only to earn more money as you reasonable could is not the way a fair competition is working. Nothing more and nothing less.

4. Comply with rules and play in a fair way as the type of game is expectable to do, we will have no problem. Wanting to be the number one and using each loophole and/or bug even if they are unlogical always have the risk to cross the line and to be punished. But you shouldn't accuse us for punishing you when you crossed the line - that is a poor attitude.

39

I am curious on what happened on you to change you from thinking "There isn't anything wrong with those configurations. " to writing "even arguing that point is moot."? 

Okay, those are two different arguments where you've taken something I said and put it against each other. I said 'even arguing that point is moot' in response to your saying you are a new player, when you said earlier in this thread you played on Gatow. In any case, the situation about you being new is moot because of what SK said a bit earlier:

On registration you confirm to have read the general clauses and game rules (including the preamble). You acknowledge not to have any rights on your account or any ingame virtual good. So yes, if it would be necessary we would have the right to simply delete everything you have built up in AirlineSim. 

Where I said I don't think the configurations are illegal is also moot. Doesn't matter what I think. The AS team and UAB have determined this is exploiting a loophole, and those found will be reset/deleted. 

40

Just to add, the rule IS there. You are forbidden to exploit bugs/loopholes. If you need AS to tell you explicitly what the bugs/loopholes are, that would imply AS knew about these. That is not the case, hence the rule, bugs and loopholes are initially unknown to AS, until someone finds it. When that person finds it, the correct action would be to inform the AS team, not exploit it.