Why is airlinesim losing players

Most of the players of the airlines I listed in my post were new players or playing AS for less than a year when they started their successful airlines. Success does not come overnight. But there is one difference between the "two groups" of players (let's just call them two groups). The first group is polite and wants to learn, and appreciates guidance. I have received my fair share of guidance here, and I also have expressed certain level of frustration of somehow not understanding the mechanics (especially of ORS) in the beginning.

When you show willingness to listen, you will be helped by more experienced players. If they see you helping others with the little knowledge you have, they will be even more willing to help you. There were several threads here of players offering themselves as mentors. Few have taken the advantage of these generous offers. But when you come with an agenda, and when you do nothing else than complain, very few would be willing to help out. You will find yourself isolated more and more, as others (experienced players) will not want to deal with you.

Show a little humbleness and willingness to learn and listen, and take advise to the heart, and you will see completely new horizons opening up for you. Be a d**k (sorry for the word but I use it intentionally to make a point) and you will not go far.

I will still address some of the issues you mentioned, because I have an opposing view.

Using cheap old planes is not an exploit when you start on an old server. It is a way to build a competing network. Whether such network will be competitive will depend on other factors of your strategy. Anybody can do that, with 25,000 AS$ a week 26-year old 737-300s. But you must know what you are doing, and you must compensate for lower image by better service or seats, thus your profit margin will be lower, but your lease will be lower as well. You must know where to put those aircraft and you must schedule waves to get connecting pax right from the beginning.

Better seats are not exploits, they are what they are - better seats, better product. You have Ryanair and you have Etihad, both offering flights with different concept. Of course Etihad will have a better rating. Or just take Turkish, on Europe to Turkey routes. Comparing Turkish to Easyjet is like comparing Standard Economy to Comfort Plus seat in AS. Different product, different image, different price. Better seats will give you better rating, but lower profit margin if you use the default price. You can raise the price but that in turn lowers the rating. Finding the sweet, optimum point is the challenge, and when you find it (for each seat type, route, aircraft, etc.) you have a 50% assured profitability (the other 50% is optimized network). Each part of AS (aircraft, product, seat, price, image, network) performs a vital part. If you do not develop your strategy as a little guy, if you do not find your own "mix" of these features for your airline, you will have no luck as big airline either.

But all of this takes time, the time you better spend researching on the gameworld than complaining on the board. I spent countless hours on research (yes, research is important) and that did bear fruits, lots of fruits.

It’s about attitude ... you can either see the glass half full or half empty. You can either see a slot congestion, or an opportunity to awaken the sleeping giant. Azul Linhas Aereas became the 3rd largest airline in Brazil by finding its niche and serving routes nobody ever thought of serving, creating a hub in a place nobody thought to be a viable hub place. Neeleman does not have luck, he has brains. What Azul did in real life you can do in-game in AS.

But that brings me back to the beginning ... listening and learning, or complaining. Yours is the path to choose.

P.S. IL-planes on Quimby... My opinion is that those who use them only want to stroke their egos. Why they would do it on a sandbox, 3-month duration server, is beyond my understanding. I think most of these people would most likely not be able to build a large-size airline on an existing server and sustain it in a long term.

But Quimby is a sandbox, so anything goes.

Neeleman only ever starts a new enterprise when he has over 150 Million+ in seed capital. If only AS gave the 100 million we all could start with 20 ATR 72: 600's bought at half price and have 20 more on Order and 20 EMB 195 bought at less than cost to start a very nice hub anywhere.

Comparing real world to enterprises to AS is pointless. Or else AS needs to add a 45 $ surcharge to all seats sold on LHR and UK flights for Air passenger duty tax and put a 20 million fee on every slot pair at LHR . I can imagine if that was in game and LHR and LGW had their true slots we'd no longer see so many major enterprises on every slot there 

Many of the exploits that have been pointed out were there and pointed out over a year ago by people who now defend them. Why? Because they used and use them to get the edge on gameworld starts? 

I like the game much and I am dealing with my third airline now. Earlier companies went broke due to bad management. The game is hard to play and yesterday I lost a plane due to a stupid decision. Cash is king ;-).

Naming players "fanboy" or "whiner" is not right and is not helping the discussion.

I discovered that there are two kind of players. One group is playing against the system and wants to beat the system. The other one is competing against other players and using the system as the gaming platform. It is clear that these two purposes on one server is not working. May be AS can do something about that. In between we need to deal with the situation and speak out the hope that the system beaters will not beat the fun of the gamers.

Neeleman only ever starts a new enterprise when he has over 150 Million+ in seed capital. If only AS gave the 100 million we all could start with 20 ATR 72: 600's bought at half price and have 20 more on Order and 20 EMB 195 bought at less than cost to start a very nice hub anywhere.

Many of the exploits that have been pointed out were there and pointed out over a year ago by people who now defend them. Why? Because they used and use them to get the edge on gameworld starts? 

You can make about 20x more money in AS than in real world (per year). By the same token, your 10 MM seed capital in AS is worth at least US$200 MM real world seed money.

Most of the players who are responding to you and who you consider your adversaries, do not play on new world starts.

Actually the seed capital is still only worth 10 million no matter if the profit you can glean is 10 to 20 times real world. 10 million is 10 million when the initial lease costs are based on real world barring a few 'super' aircraft. 

A quick check of google and I find that many of those whom you consider my 'adversaries' seem to have raised the exact same or similar objections I have, over a year to 19 months ago and yet those loopholes still exist and are able to be used and were used ( eg. slimline HD in business class) to get their success.

As for old being able to start on established servers with old 25 year old aircraft that is again pretty difficult as many of those cheap old aircraft are keep by the mega enterprises and sit doing nothing but since they only cost 25k to be doing nothing they are of little loss but ensure no competition from them will start. In Reality mothballing an airframe even for a few months is minimum 100K if ever you hope to fly it again and often stretches to millions. AS gives no penalty by the cheap lease which is about he profit from one sector of 1 narrow body Aicraft

McRonald hit the nail on the head in that there are those who follow sensible real world plans believing it is a simulation and there are those with a bit more knowing of the mechanics who know how to game the system. The problem is that in a single game world one group of 3 or 4 can ruin the gameplay for 5 to 10 at a hub or everyone who plays on a continent in a gameworld. 

... AS not a balanced competition until you know those exploits.

 

 …

Care to elaborate which “cheats” and “exploits” you’re talking about?

I’ve been into the game for more than ten years now and have seen quite some cheats, cheaters, bugs and exploits.

Currently I see none. All I see is a system that depicts real markets fairly close.

There are some kinks and edges to the aircraft trader which are being worked on. Please don’t refer to Quimby as I don’t consider this time likited sandbox world the serious part of the game.

Isn’t the problem just the following:

So many players join AS seeking an “as real as it gets” simulation, yet fail to bring in the most basic knowledge about market mechanisms, cost accounting or airlines/aircraft in general and complain when the realism they were seeking get’s at them.

One question I’ve posted probably a dozen times already:

If old aircaft are so cheap in fresh worlds, then why aren’t you going for them? They wouldn’t be as cheap if you’d do so.

There are some kinks and edges in AS that need tweaking, particularly with the trader - fully agreed, but 90% of all “problems” I’m reading posts about aren’t AS’ fault as described above.

And I think I can judge to a certain extend, not only with the experience of 10+ years of AS playing, but also thanks to spending quite some time at Universities studying economics and stuff…

As far as the question is concerned, why there’s so little help to newbies:

There’s enough help out there, not only in Wiki, but particularly on the forums.

AS’ dilemma remains: as a strictly databased simulation, the only “advantage” a player has is his individual knowledge, being it about aircraft, math, costing or market mechanisms.

Sharing all this with others would be like playing the game for them. This is not a first-person-shooter or racing sim where personal skills and abilities are needed to be faster or better.

Personally, I’m trying my best to help others on the forums with “basic” knowledge as I think it’s the core sense of the game to establish something on your own. Where would be the fun otherwise?

Maybe it is not the right way to call other players whiners...

Right you are. Was a bit over the top.

Please accept my apologies.

( eg. slimline HD in business class)

It is forbidden and in case someone is using this, report them, we will check this. IF the report is right, the airline is deleted or punished somehow else! We did that before and do not hasitate to do that again as this is cheating and this is forbidden.

It is forbidden and in case someone is using this, report them, we will check this. IF the report is right, the airline is deleted or punished somehow else! We did that before and do not hasitate to do that again as this is cheating and this is forbidden.

How much coding time would be required to simply make it impossible to create a seat layout that has slimline HD seats in Bussiness and First class like was suggested? ( just remove or grey out the seat from the dropdown of possible seats ).

To me it seems you would save alot of time to build this rule into the game instead of trying to police/enforce it.

I enjoy this game immensely. But with IL-18s being so cheap, there is a mad rush to create huge networks overnight, which goes against the grain of this being a real-time game.

Really, even I have said this before. The game is not hard you could even start in a small 4 bar airport and become huge whit the right playing skills. Here is an example, this airline is very big and has it´s hub in a 4 bar airport that in real life is quite small, http://stapleton.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/46425?13 well very big airlines on very big airports are a sight you see quite much, but a big airline on a 4 bar airport is very rare and to me quite strange if a city whit  43 775 can fly so much. I myself am getting quite sad when I see players saying " I do not find a good airport as hub ". Really just look, open your eyes to the world. I know that this game is very hard but you have to open your eyes and think about how to do it not just start whit a Dreamliner in LHR saying " Why is my plane not full". 

Also as I have said before Quimby is a trial and error server, and if you do not want it play on Aspern were there are just new planes. Perssonaly I like that you could have il-18s on quimby just to get to the stage were you are big faster and you could start playing whit big planes. Also Quimby is not full at all, open your eyes from Germany. I am not personally playing on Quimby.

I did not write this to be mean I just wanted to tell you to open your eyes.

Christian

Really, even I have said this before. The game is not hard you could even start in a small 4 bar airport and become huge whit the right playing skills. Here is an example, this airline is very big and has it´s hub in a 4 bar airport that in real life is quite small, http://stapleton.airlinesim.aero/app/info/enterprises/46425?13 well very big airlines on very big airports are a sight you see quite much, but a big airline on a 4 bar airport is very rare and to me quite strange if a city whit  43 775 can fly so much. I myself am getting quite sad when I see players saying " I do not find a good airport as hub ". Really just look, open your eyes to the world. I know that this game is very hard but you have to open your eyes and think about how to do it not just start whit a Dreamliner in LHR saying " Why is my plane not full". 

Also as I have said before Quimby is a trial and error server, and if you do not want it play on Aspern were there are just new planes. Perssonaly I like that you could have il-18s on quimby just to get to the stage were you are big faster and you could start playing whit big planes. Also Quimby is not full at all, open your eyes from Germany. I am not personally playing on Quimby.

I did not write this to be mean I just wanted to tell you to open your eyes.

Christian

I actually agree with you now. Before I knew more about how to play this game it was extremely frustrating because although it's possible in those smaller airports, having a large airport as a hub is obviously an advantage. But there is a certain charm to finding that midsize airport in a crowded market to start with and growing.

That said, the only thing I wish is that there was a better way to check slot availability % than typing in every airport I can think of in the new enterprise screen. Before you have an enterprise on a server, going through 20-30 different airports to check all the availability can be somewhat frustrating. Just a better UI for picking your initial hub would be a great improvement IMO.

Maybe a simple way would be for a new statistic- countries with less than 50 registered aircraft or some thing like this. 

....Well there are very many newbies everywhere and very few of them really stay to one server. Why I think they leave is that the game is actually because it is very hard and there is not that much information about how it works.....

Christian

In my opinion this is the main problem of the game. It is designed to fit the needs of 10% of its players - the hardcore users. The new design on quimby makes it even more complicated for newbies. I guess this is the wrong way to acquire new curious players.

There is no real ingame tutorial - if i hadn't found alphapiomegas letsplays on youtube, i wouldn't have any clue how the game works in depth.

All other points have allready been said by topherpilot.

If you so much don't like the way Airlinesim is, you are free to play zillion other games or buy Airline 7 and play offline with no competition.

More comments to follow when on PC.

That is a poor answer. Criticism is necessary to make improvements possbile. In every post you just argue from an economical position. "it just makes sense to buy old planes in the beginning because it's successful". Yeah of course it is, but it's a game, and you can change rules if some mechanism works against having fun for a lot of players. In this case you could just start the aicraft market with less offers. Only provide 10% of the overall-used-planes in the first week. Then provide another 10% in the second week etc. That would do the job brilliant.

Don't get me wrong. I like this game, otherwise i wouldn't play it - but the frustration-level for beginners is often very high and there is a lot of space for overall improvement, especially in usability ( quimby style contraproductive) and avoiding loop-hole-gameplay-styles like acquiring a lot of old planes very early in the server start and making a ton of money on the first days.

There is also an outdated wiki, which soon will be updated. So we do know this issue too.

There is also an outdated wiki, which soon will be updated. So we do know this issue too.

Any chance of getting some better hub-choosing tools in that mountain of work you guys have? :)

What especially do you mean?

That said, the only thing I wish is that there was a better way to check slot availability % than typing in every airport I can think of in the new enterprise screen. Before you have an enterprise on a server, going through 20-30 different airports to check all the availability can be somewhat frustrating. Just a better UI for picking your initial hub would be a great improvement IMO.

Is it really unreasonable to ask that a serious player spends 30min checking slots to have a chance at building a large airline giving you hundreds of hours of playtime managing over the coming months or even years?

If you don't have patience for this AS is probably not a game you as a player will enjoy anyways. You need lots of patience later in this game to wait for days to have planes delivered and see how much Seat load factor you are getting.

In regards to the topic:

Although I left the game I check back every now and then to see what has changed / is changing. The reasons of why I left have nothing to do with the availability of some old airframes when a new server starts or people who try to game the game and all that stuff. In my opinion this is only important for those who want to be the biggest/boldest/fastest/whatever....

I left because of core game mechanics that bugged me. Starting with large amounts of narrowbodies on longhaul. Also the fact that competition is not a factor and as soon as you reach critical mass the only way to bankruptcy is by a combination of very low AGEX and non-optimal player decisions (though the AGEX has been softened so much, it does not matter any longer). I learned for certain that the existence of another airline at your HUB will only limit you in slots but not in PAX. 

Key reasons of why I left:

other players will never have an effect on your LF,

AGEX changes made the game less challenging,

the smaller the planes / higher the frequency the better,

direct connections in the overall scheme are much less preferred because the ORS takes all connections into account,

critical mass effect,

unrealistic low operating costs of small airplanes and/or the use of very high quality seats

price / product quality relation is too linear,

too similar server configurations that could otherwise target different player wishes (i.e. hard gameworlds)

Maybe some of these points are being worked on maybe not, but I was not prepared to be paying while waiting for them to be fixed.

Key reasons of why I left:

other players will never have an effect on your LF,

AGEX changes made the game less challenging,

the smaller the planes / higher the frequency the better,

direct connections in the overall scheme are much less preferred because the ORS takes all connections into account,

critical mass effect,

unrealistic low operating costs of small airplanes and/or the use of very high quality seats

price / product quality relation is too linear,

too similar server configurations that could otherwise target different player wishes (i.e. hard gameworlds)

Maybe some of these points are being worked on maybe not, but I was not prepared to be paying while waiting for them to be fixed.

Thanks for the feedback. Most of the things you mentioned are on our short- to mid-term to-do list. I am well aware of the short-comings of the core mechanics and they will be the focus of my work throughout 2015 and probably beyond. It's just not something I can or should change overnight ;)

Is it really unreasonable to ask that a serious player spends 30min checking slots to have a chance at building a large airline giving you hundreds of hours of playtime managing over the coming months or even years?

If you don't have patience for this AS is probably not a game you as a player will enjoy anyways. You need lots of patience later in this game to wait for days to have planes delivered and see how much Seat load factor you are getting.

No?

But that isn't who this benefits. It benefits the newcomer who is still figuring out the game, who is likely to ONLY look at big airports in places they personally know at first, and then be nonplused when all of them are full on slots.

What especially do you mean?

Newcomers, as I mentioned above, very strongly try to start in large airports near places that they know. Someone living in New York might look at JFK, La Guardia, Newark, Boston Logan, Philadelphia, and IAD, then be somewhat stumped if all of them are basically full on slots.

I think many of the frequent posts we see in the forum support this. Often newcomers complain of full slots, when the answer may be "well STL is almost empty, so you could build connections out of there". But they have no way of knowing that, and are very unlikely (as a newcomer) to check 40-50 airports around the world.

I think some tools besides the simple box where you put in a hub and it gives you the slots % would help. Perhaps something that shows the average slot % of all 8 bar and higher airports in each country? I don't know, there are many routes that could be taken on this.

Many newcomers aren't able to learn the OTHER things about this game because the established world are almost impossible to start in if you try to start in a large airport in Europe or the US. Something that helped newcomers choose better starting hubs to get going at would probably be very helpful.