I started out around 6 months ago on one of the old servers, as we all know these are mostly owned by deeply embedded players (I had a few large airlines on other servers previously).
I received the below from one of those today, is this OK within the AS rules? It does seem to be abusing a dominant position (bearing in mind these are 25% of AS value its almost impossible to compete). In my mind its fine to be dominant on the airline routes etc, but nobody should control the aircraft supply. In the “real world” United etc do not buy up every plane on the planet and then lease them on (just my view)
"I noticed you ordered some 787 today. Please be so kind and read again the description of my leasing companies (also on the airline info of the companies):
AIRLINE NAME REMOVED:
!!! Please do not just bid on any machines, they are all ordered !
This means that I only make offers for machines, if someone has ordered them from me.
AIRLINE NAME REMOVED:
Here everyone can bid as much as they like. You can recognise these offers from me very well, as they all have a starting price of 50% and an auction duration of 1.5 days.
If a machine has a shorter auction duration, it is not an ROL offer.
If you are looking for machines, you are welcome to contact me in writing at any time in advance. If I still have some to offer, I will be happy to make them available. You are also welcome to choose the auction duration.
You are, of course, free to bid on any machine that’s on the market. That’s sort of the point. People can of course ask you nicely not to, but there is no rule that would support their position.
Ahh ok, does kind of tie in with the large airlines being able to dominate the rental market really! Its a shame, my own feeling has always been the game would be better if players can not rent out aircraft at all although appreciate I will be in a minority on this one.
Not sure whether I’d call it “dominate” in this case. Players want to act as leasing companies and use the inadequate tools they have available to the best of their abilities.
Open markets in AS are always an issue. It’s the reason why the stock market is on its inevitable way out. The only reason the aircraft market is here to stay (for now) is that it’s an integral part of real-world aviation. The reason for why it works the way it does is that we don’t feel like allowing players to create completely custom-terms contract…that would be a massive invite to exploitation. The auction system, in theory, allows any player to bid on aircraft on offer, thereby creating a “market value”. In practice, the volume is far too low and the fact that contract terms are relatively short (as you experienced) sort of kills the mechanism for leasing transactions.
Adjustments to these systems (I wouldn’t call it an overhaul) are relatively high on our list of priorities, though. Especially more elaborate leasing contract terms might alleviate some of those issues.
The player responded with the below and ceased the lease on 30+ of my aircraft leaving my airline out of business. I will email support regarding this action as it is anti competitive and in breach of game rules as you said the auction is open to all.
If AS dont do something about this they will have lost a player who has been on this game since 2012…
Thanks
"Hi,
The open market exists exclusively for AS offers. My offers are only subject to my conditions and I can terminate them if someone does not abide by the rules.
Please no public accusations of people…use the in-game report tool if you want ti report someone. That said…
The problem here is that yes, the auctions are open for anyone. But so is the ability to cancel a leasing contract within the terms the game currently permits. It’s a grey area and I can see how this is annoying. It’s definitely something that is near impossible to see beforehand when just looking at offers on the market, even for experienced players. As such it’s not a very friendly or constructive behavior on the part of the lessor. But it’s nothing strictly against the rules, I am afraid.
That’s not what I said. I said that’s not technically possible. A user can offer an aircraft at whatever rate the game permits. And a user can cancel a leasing contract at whatever terms the game permits. So technically, nothing here is against the rules.
You’ll get back your deposits on those leases. You should be able to acquire replacement aircraft, no?
I get the deposit back AFTER the 30 leases are returned. There are no 787’s available on the game word, so where do I get them from to begin the flights? Order them? I will be bankrupt by the time they are delivered.
A growing airline in AS doesnt have enough cash or credit to buy 30 787-10’s outright, i need to wait for the deposit back. By which time it is too late.
I am sorry that you have to experience this, but my hands are more or less tied in this matter. Doing transactions with private lessors carries an inherent risk. And if we forced identical terms on private lessors as on the official AirlineSim ones, what would be the point in the first place?
Have you tried to appeal to the person cancelling the leases yet?
Chris, it’s unbelievable what you’re doing here.
I’ve made you aware that I think it’s good if you write me a quick message before they want to lease new machines from me.
I told you that I only offer my decommissioned models for immediate leasing.
You say you don’t want to read my messages and my 5 lines of T&C with barely 150 characters.
That’s ok. You got the machines on Saturday.
After 3 days of accusing me of everything that has been done to you on other servers. Then you tell me you never want to do business with me again… and lecture me in one go about how I have to play, what I have to put on the market and that I am ruining the whole game of AS.
And that’s because I asked you 3 times very politely if you could please just let me know when you want NEW machines.
Chris you are beyond help and I have no desire to support your selfishness any longer. And that’s the only reason why I cancelled all your machines today - after 3 days of typing.
I’m really sorry that you’re going broke because of this. But there are plenty of other machines on the market. Not for the same price. You’ve now been allowed to use my cheap models for 6 months. But I’m not going to let you get at me and blame me for things that happened on other worlds and the accusation that I am destroying the entire AS.
I just asked you nicely if you could let me know NEXT TIME. That’s all.
What you’re doing here is really incredible.
Your 787s have a cancellation period of 4 weeks. So you can definitely order 10 times the quantity in this time.
In addition, you have received 4x 321 and 16x 320 as cancellation +3 781.
So no… no 30 cancelled 781s.
Just stick to the truth for once. You’ve insulted me for three days in a row, tried to blackmail me and publicly pilloried me.
And then you said that you didn’t want to do any more business with me. And you don’t read my messages either! What else can I offer you?
At some point it’s over. It won’t help if you write even more untruths that nobody will buy.
And how do I order them when I dont get the deposit back until after the lease is cancelled? We have 7 million in the bank and make about 5 million per day.
A 787 is about 7 million.
Not interested in an aircraft change.
To be honest have given up on this game, if this market abuse is allowed to go without me being assisted by the game then I wont be playing any more.
I never did this to smaller players when I had large airlines, so I would expect it to not happen to me.
And just to clarify, by abuse I mean airlines buying up every available aircraft and then telling you to agree to some random T&C if you want an aircraft.
That is not what I consider this game to be, and if this game is that then I am out.
Then you need to leave. There is no abuse when leasing out planes from private companies. If you want to be sure that you will never loose a plane, you can rely on official AS leasing company.
In my terms and conditions it only contains that you should not bid without notification because the machines are only available on order. That’s all it says.
And no, I don’t buy all the airplanes on the market. The ones I have were all in service with me. I have replaced them with new and younger ones.
If I had sold them, I would only have received 50% of the book value. And then all but about 200 of the 1000 aircraft would have ended up on the scrap heap. Nobody would have profited from this.
Especially not players in your position. They would no longer exist since last year…
You cant use AS when the competitors are using planes 75% cheaper.
Well thats it then, after 12 years I am out of here!
I am not agreeing to go to some random T&C page and to only bid on certain planes, but not other planes. I have enough going on, no time for that rubbish.
