767-300ER versus 787

English Boards General
1

Hi,

I operate a fleet of 767-300ER's. Installing new seats meant dropping a lot of capacity...

So I compared the 767-300ER with the 787. According to the book, the 787 can accommodate 31 more passengers than the 767. One would expect that when using seats that are twice as big, the 787 could carry 190 seats and the 767-300ER 175 seats. I mean, the bigger seats you use, the smaller the difference should be.

The cabin editor however tells another story.

If equipped with Full Bed seats and Shorthaul Recliner seats, this is what you get:

767:

35 business seats

98 economy seats

787:

35 business seats

153 economy seats.

55 seats is a big difference  :-)

Are there plans to change the floorplans in cases like this ?

Jan

2

Hi,

 

I operate a fleet of 767-300ER’s. Installing new seats meant dropping a lot of capacity…

 

So I compared the 767-300ER with the 787. According to the book, the 787 can accommodate 31 more passengers than the 767. One would expect that when using seats that are twice as big, the 787 could carry 190 seats and the 767-300ER 175 seats. I mean, the bigger seats you use, the smaller the difference should be.

 

The cabin editor however tells another story.

 

If equipped with Full Bed seats and Shorthaul Recliner seats, this is what you get:

 

767:

35 business seats

98 economy seats

 

787:

35 business seats

153 economy seats.

 

55 seats is a big difference  :slight_smile:

 

Are there plans to change the floorplans in cases like this ?

 

Jan

You are generous to your economy pax. I did full bed and comfort plus, but I got a similarly large gap between my 787 (Global) and 767 (Panamena and Argentina). They are basically the same size, from what I can tell…

3

If you use the new cabin editor, you'll notice that it's kind of headache for checking their real capacity. For example you can transport more people in 787 than A330, although it appears that A330's capacity is larger. 

4

Its all about seat size and number of exits the aircrafts have. Its like the 737-900 which is rated for 189 passengers even thought its the same exact design as the 737-900ER except for the exit doors.

5

While I have to say that this update is a big leap forward in the game, for which I'm grateful to the team, I also have to say that it has a few glitches. I agree with the point made in the thread, having a fleet of 763s I had found this issue too.

I was trying to configure my planes with a new layout with more or less the same capacity of the current one. If I understood correctly Comfort should correspond to the old Eco Plus, which I had used on my long haul planes, while Comfort Plus seats should, more or less, correspond to a Premium Economy. Honestly speaking I think that those seats are a bit too wide.

I cannot arrange a 2-3-2 layout in Economy Class, which is the one that most real 763 operators have with a width varying between 17 and 18 inches, exception made for some charter operators which have a sardine can configuration of 2-4-2. The only economy seat that allows You to get a 2-3-2 is the Leisure/Leisure Plus which is not the ideal one for long haul flights, With Comfort seats You get 30 (which, by the way, corresponds to the missing row of seats) less connecting pax .

Let's do some simple accountancy, and I'll take my case as example: with a fleet of 20 763s it's 1200 pax less each day, or 438.000 pax less each year. On the monetary side of the thing, let's put an average fare of 500 AS$, it turns out that we'll loose 219 million AS$ less each year, it's a sum that could never be offset by the increased business class fares.

That's a huge number, and keep in mind that I'm a small widebody operator, but those who have a big wb fleet are going to be even more negatively affected by this. After a few tests, Airbus widebodies suffer from the same issue, since they should have an economy layout of 2-4-2 whereas they get a 2-3-2 with Comfort and a 2-2-2 with Comfort Plus.

Long haul operations were already negatively affected by the fact that a good portion of those long range routes could have been operated more profitably by a flock of 739HGWs, and while the new seating system is a huge advance in shorthaul, it's going to make long haul flights even more unattractive.

Kindly

Alessandro

6

While I have to say that this update is a big leap forward in the game, for which I'm grateful to the team, I also have to say that it has a few glitches. I agree with the point made in the thread, having a fleet of 763s I had found this issue too.

I was trying to configure my planes with a new layout with more or less the same capacity of the current one. If I understood correctly Comfort should correspond to the old Eco Plus, which I had used on my long haul planes, while Comfort Plus seats should, more or less, correspond to a Premium Economy. Honestly speaking I think that those seats are a bit too wide.

I cannot arrange a 2-3-2 layout in Economy Class, which is the one that most real 763 operators have, exception made for some charter operators which have a sardine can configuration of 2-4-2. The only economy seat that allows You to get a 2-3-2 is the Leisure/Leisure Plus which is not the ideal one for long haul flights, With Comfort seats You get 30 (which, by the way, corresponds to the missing row of seats) less connecting pax .

Let's do some simple accountancy, and I'll take my case as example: with a fleet of 20 763s it's 1200 pax less each day, or 438.000 pax less each year. On the monetary side of the thing, let's put an average fare of 500 AS$, it turns out that we'll loose 219 million AS$ less each year, it's a sum that could never be offset by the increased business class fares.

That's a huge number, and keep in mind that I'm a small widebody operator, but those who have a big wb fleet are going to be even more negatively affected by this. After a few tests, Airbus widebodies suffer from the same issue, since they should have an economy layout of 2-4-2 whereas they get a 2-3-2 with Comfort and a 2-2-2 with Comfort Plus.

Long haul operations were already negatively affected by the fact that a good portion of those long range routes could have been operated more profitably by a flock of 739HGWs, and while the new seating system is a huge advance in shorthaul, it's going to make long haul flights even more unattractive.

Kindly

Alessandro

The 2-2-2 config is a bit crazy. I think it should fit a 2-3-2 config in economy.

7

Why do you alwas have Comfort or Comfort Plus Seats in mind? Take a leisure plus and you have a 2-3-2 (or a Recliner Shorthaul). If you want a better rating for the seat (and can require higher ticket prices) you have to select larger seats...

8

Why do you alwas have Comfort or Comfort Plus Seats in mind? Take a leisure plus and you have a 2-3-2 (or a Recliner Shorthaul). If you want a better rating for the seat (and can require higher ticket prices) you have to select larger seats...

Because one would probably like to offer a product which is on par with the old one, and from what I had understood by searching the forums the (more or less) equivalent of the old Eco Plus is the new Comfort seat. That's it, plain and simple, but I might have got the wrong end of the stick, in which case I do apologize.

9

Hi,

some time ago, a German player wrote on this forum that the new comfort seat would replace the old ecoplus, and that the full bed would replace the business premium.

Thursday evening I checked my airline and noticed that:

- my ORS ratings had plummetted

- my image ratings had plummetted (seat space and flight attendants)

So I hurried to replace my cabin configurations... no time for experimenting. By the way, the next day the ORS ratings (also for my old seats) went back up. But that is another topic.

In the case of my 767 fleet that means:

25 Full Bed seats instead of 28 Business Premium, and

144 Comfort Plus seats instead of 186 Ecoplus seats.

My old ecoplus seats gave me a 5 bar rating on every distance, but the new Comfort Plus seats have a lower rating, which results in a lower ORS rating. I don't know yet how much I can increase the price of my business seats, but I doubt that it will make up for the fact that the new configuration has 48 seats less than the old one. And that is without taking into account that the new economy seats will have to be sold cheaper if I want my old ORS rating of 100 back (now 96 for economy).

As for the 767 floor plan... the plane has a capacity of 350 passengers, but only fits 287 standard seats. In other planes, you can more or less fit  the correct number of standard seats.

So my original questions remains: are there plans to change the floor plan of the 767 ?

Jan

10

The long haul seats seem to be a big problem. I am not sure it is even worth flying long haul anymore.

The problem that I can see is this-

Say there s 2 option for a route.

a-b-c   distance a to b 7000km b to c 500km.

a-f-c  distance a to f 3500 f to c 4000km

It is very difficult to get a good rating on the 7000km route and be profitable becaue you have to compete against 2 shorter flights a-f-c. You can easily have a good rating in a profitable format for two shorter flight then one long flight and one short one. 

11

I'm flying long Haul, and thru the new configuration I've increased my profits on most of the routes! I fly 787, 777-200/300, and A380. All of them are pretty profitable to my airline.

Just do the math, and you’ll figure out, precisely what I did to balance new seating/expenses of operation.

Oh, and I make a 18500 Km flight daily, and managed to increse profits on that one while maintaining a high rating ;)

12

I don't have an old, gigantic airline, and I haven't really run a successful one for more than a couple months, so keep that in mind when I say this...

There's no real equal between the systems. Eco plus doesn't equal comfort or comfort plus or whatever. You can't just pull one and plug in another and expect everything to be rosy. Just like us newbs, the elders of the game may actually have to do a little research into what works best.

13

I can pretty sure to say that B767 and A330 are losers, while B777, 787 and A380 are winners. Why? Only they have a higher width! 2-2-2 is horrible...

14

I agree, I started a long haul connctor on Aspern and I intended to go full Airbus. Although the A321 works out great, the A332 seems to be a big loser… I might have to switch to the B788. Is the AS team going to adjust the A330 and B767 floorplans? It matters to me to make a long term discission.

15

Real life Cabin widths:

B787--> 5.49m

B767–> 4.72m

B777--> 5.87m

A330--> 5.28m 

A380--> 6.54/5.80m

I rest my case.

16

Real life Cabin widths:

B787--> 5.49m

B767–> 4.72m

B777--> 5.87m

A330--> 5.28m 

A380--> 6.54/5.80m

I rest my case.

Care to tell us the length also?

17

Real life Cabin widths:

B787--> 5.49m

B767–> 4.72m

B777--> 5.87m

A330--> 5.28m 

A380--> 6.54/5.80m

I rest my case.

No one wants You to change Your idea on that. Your case is different than ours and, while we're glad that Your profits have increased and that Your strategy works well for You, we'd like to discuss and possibly find a solution about something that represents an issue to us in order to better plan our future strategies.

95% of real life 767s have a 2-3-2 layout in economy class, A330/340s have a 2-4-2, 787s have a 3-3-3. With the new long haul economy seats you can't reproduce that.

After a few researches I did in the last few days, I've found out that the width of the economy class seats on real life airplanes has values inbetween 17 and 18 inches. I'd like to know what is the seat widht of the Comfort and Comfort Plus seats so to determine if there's a glitch in the seats or in the cabin width and possibly try to reach a solution to this issue.

Kindly

Alessandro

18

No one wants You to change Your idea on that. Your case is different than ours and, while we're glad that Your profits have increased and that Your strategy worsk well for You, we'd like to discuss and possibly find a solution about something that represents an issue to us and we'd like to discuss about that in order to know what our strategies will be.

95% of real life 767s have a 2-3-2 layout in economy class, A330/340s have a 2-4-2, 787s have a 3-3-3. With the new long haul economy seats you can't reproduce that.

After a few researches I did in the last few days, I've found out that the width of the economy class seats on real life airplanes has values inbetween 17 and 18 inches. I'd like to know what is the seat widht of the Comfort and Comfort Plus seats so to determine if there's a glitch in the seats or in the cabin width and possibly try to reach a solution to this issue.

Kindly

Alessandro

Check out ANA, the most premium 787 regular economy is 2-4-2. That is the BEST real life economy seat, but the ratings are absolute crap in the game if you go 2-4-2...

19

You need to understand something here.

In real life, no one is offering better than 2-4-2, therefore that's the best you can get.

In AS, people WANT TO offer better ratings than their competition, therefore they need to offer better seats.

If everyone was offering 2-4-2 and get a crappy rating, it wouldn't matter, PAX would still book because they have no other options. Same in real life, airlines get away with crappy seats because everyone else is also offering crappy seats.

This is more of a problem of supply and demand. Maybe there is too much supply in AS, so you need to offer better seats to be able to compete.

20

Hi,

to be honest, I can live with any configuration. The AS team has done a great effort in trying to reproduce reality as much as possible, but I would not let my sleep over a 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 seating arrangement. After all, AirlineSim is a simulation game. So things will always be a compromise between reality and playability (is that a word?).

I am more worried about my 767's not being able to accommodate enough seats. If a plane is big enough to accommodate 270 comfort plus seats, I would like to be able to put more than 216 seats in my planes. The difference is just too big and long haul flights are not profitable enough or that sort of difference.

I am not interested in standard seats, and certainly not for long haul flights. But can you image an airline that would accept to put 287 standard seats in a plane that is certified for 350 passengers ? Sorry sir, the floor plan of your plane is a bit awkward and does not allow optimal use of the available space. But your passengers will be happy because they can organise a dance party in the extra wide aisles.

:lol:

Jan