Allegations against Sparrow Group and CAMUXX Group / devau

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1

Hello!

Yesterday I purchased 900.000 shares of Panama Skies and got control of the airline. Due to this fact, I terminated all leases with the aim to deploy my own aircraft (Fokker 100s) leased from Sparrow Group.

Today I got a message from the former owner, that he "accidentally sold this airline" to me and he asked me to consider "selling him back" to him. I answered that I am willing to sell my shares for a "small profit" (e.g. for a higher share) to get a profit and I told him that (due to my plans) all leases of aircraft were terminated.

Coinciding I lost the control of Panama Skies due to shift of shares.

I got no answer but another player (CAMUXX Group) informed me moments ago about the info text of Panama Skies with the information that:

"All interline offers will be accepted, unless you're part of the dirty tricks campaign from Sparrow Group & Camuxx Group."

I don´t see any dirty tricks and  want to state the following:

I never had a campaign with CAMUXX in South America. 

It´s apalling to claim my decision to purchase his shares with the aim to do business as "dirty tricks" with another player.

I opened the thread for the sake of correct information versus the information text provided by this player on the page of Panama Skies on server devau.

Thank you and thanks to all business partners!

CEO, Sparrow Air

2

If he decides to play dirty then you should too. If you have deleased all his leased fleet of 174 aircraft then it will take him some time to reconstruct. During that time start a airline in Panama yourself and beat him. 

Or try to negotiate in some way with him.

3

3 points I will highlight -

The first, you dont own anywhere near enough Fokker 100 airframes to be able to lease from Sparrow to fulfill all terminated leases. Over 140 frames. If you had intended to keep the airline going you would have replaced as and when you had aircraft to do so. Not watch schedules be destroyed by terminating all.

second, you wrote text in the info section saying you were stripping all assets to realise its cash value.

third, in the same text box, you stated that no further interline requests would be accepted, and that you’d be happy to terminate current interlines, yet you had convieniently signed only one interline with one airline from the Camuxx Group.

More than enough evidence to suggest a dirty tricks campaign by you both.

I look forward to the war in the skies you have begun!

4

Not that it’s anything to me, but I’d say whatever his motives, once he buys an airline, what he chooses to do with it is his own damn business.

P.S. - How do you “accidentally” sell an airline?

5

Not that it's anything to me, but I'd say whatever his motives, once he buys an airline, what he chooses to do with it is his own damn business.

P.S. - How do you “accidentally” sell an airline?

 I don't think it was an accident, but rather sellers remorse and didn't like the way the new owner was taking the company which is a little understandable when you consider even though you sell an airline you still hope the new owner will continue the same path you started and any major changes to the company might not be received very well.  

6

@stuart2468

First, selling airline by accident is not a small mistake. before you decide to take over the airline again, you should consider what may already happen to your airline. you should prepare for the worst. you should be glad that MD-80.com's plan is not terminating all leasing and taking all money to lease cargo planes (he may, and he can, plan to change your airline to a cargo airline based in Panama)

Second, from the rating system (maybe it's not that accurate), your airline is not doing so way. In some cases, "watch schedules be destroyed by terminating all" might be a better way to save money. 

Before you wrote that statement, maybe it would be a better idea for you ask MD-80.com what exactly he planned to do with your airline first.

7

Oh, my info boxes are often like you described. That´s correct! Some other infos at my airlines are rather similar + the info about accepting no additional ILs is a standard one and it´s my decision to accept an IL because of fine business done in the past with a particular player.

I even posted some info at my other airlines that the management is currently trying to offer money to the provinces to get better airport terminals – come on!

I don´t have to explain to you my way of doing business after taking control but I will do partly:

Why are you complaining about the fact that I took control of your airline for less than one day?

In fact, you even took away my control again with your shifts in shares I think. So, what is the problem? I´ve read your question regarding a re-purchase but the airline was in your hands again. You call me dirty?

Squeezing out money and changing a business is a normal thing. Dou you really thing that I would have continued with 60 –seat Embraer 170s or A320s with less than 100 seats? The fleet was too big in my view, the airline would have been downsized dramatically and – if you like or not – Fokker 100s would have been placed + of what a secret – possibly MD-80s or BAe ATPs or ATRs or Dash 8s or what else.Panama Skies was in need to improve their financial situation with many adjustments.

I don´t have a history of buying airlines with the aim to destroy them intentionally.

You offered 900.000 shares and I purchased them! Panama Skies was not a prime business for me in the region but an airline in Colombia. Panama Skies would have been a regional airline with a feeder-function to my airline in Colombia.

You call this accidently sold. That´s insane after all the things that popped up and your actions done!

And I can say for sure: Even after the info that no further ILs are accepted, I would accept Il´s from particular players as long as it fits into the business and due to very good experience with a player. So, what´s the problem? I did not happily cancelled current ILs but it´s a normal thing that ILs could be affected after a change of ownership.

I look forward to the war in the skies you have begun!

            

I am not playing airline to make war. airlinesim is for relaxation. This is far better.

Now I have to go to work.

PS. Thanks to all replies!

8

@stuart2468

First, selling airline by accident is not a small mistake. before you decide to take over the airline again, you should consider what may already happen to your airline. you should prepare for the worst. you should be glad that MD-80.com's plan is not terminating all leasing and taking all money to lease cargo planes (he may, and he can, plan to change your airline to a cargo airline based in Panama)

Second, from the rating system (maybe it's not that accurate), your airline is not doing so way. In some cases, "watch schedules be destroyed by terminating all" might be a better way to save money. 

Before you wrote that statement, maybe it would be a better idea for you ask MD-80.com what exactly he planned to do with your airline first.

I agree selling an airline is not a small mistake, a huge one, on my part also. But a mistake it was! The reason 900k of shares were offered by my holding was because i was trying to raise extra capital for the holding. A number of my other airlines have shares in Panama Skies, and i was attempting to trade between them. I had issue with this, as the trades didn't go through, and at the time i had no reason why. i'd cancelled the Buy option with my cash rich airlines, but forgot to cancel the sell option (900k shares) and so left it open for hostile takeover. I accept this is my fault. And a stupid one at that. But a mistake it was!

Yes, the airline was a loss making one. On Devau the AGEX has been at rock bottom so Panama skies went from a small profit airline to a loss making one. I had tried to ride the low AGEX but it came to a point where i had to do something about it..... so i decided to downsize most A320s to Ejets and that i was in the process of. Based on the fleet i had changed, the airline was on a sound path to recovery. Also now the AGEX is on the increase so things were starting to look good again.

I'd actually messaged MD-80 earlier in the day to say it was a mistake and that i would like to buy the airline back, before i actually took control again and came to realize the damage he had caused. I got no answer from him until shortly before he posted here. So perhaps it may be wise not to assume i didn't contact him.

Id also messaged support earlier in the morning to ask where my airline had gone. thinking it was a program error. i couldn't see the airline on my drop down screen but knew the airline still existed. I didn't think to check if there was a new owner as i hadn't expected it to be sold. It wasn't until i had a reply to Say the Sparrow Group was the new owner did i realize what had happened.

9

 I don't think it was an accident, but rather sellers remorse and didn't like the way the new owner was taking the company which is a little understandable when you consider even though you sell an airline you still hope the new owner will continue the same path you started and any major changes to the company might not be received very well.  

He'd only bought the airline for less than 24 hours. I had not idea until i took back the airline that any damage was done.

10

If someone makes an IPO and is selling in total more than 50% of his own shares to other shareholder, it is always a risk of loosing the control. Everyone should be aware of it. The new "owner"/managing director has all rights to do what he think is the best. If the old one likes it or not doesn't matter. Please be aware of the wording used against other player, as this is not the fault of the new managing director and there are no dirty tricks or similar actions.

11

If someone makes an IPO and is selling in total more than 50% of his own shares to other shareholder, it is always a risk of loosing the control. Everyone should be aware of it. The new "owner"/managing director has all rights to do what he think is the best. If the old one likes it or not doesn't matter. Please be aware of the wording used against other player, as this is not the fault of the new managing director and there are no dirty tricks or similar actions.

An opinion you are welcome to.... I have mine also!

Just to add, that i actually feel flattered that other airlines feel it necessary to have to capitalize instantly on my mistakes to gain market share. As simply put, they are unable to when competing head to head as Camuxx has found on numerous occasions. I'm yet to go head to head with Sparrow.... but a time will come! :)

12

More than enough evidence to suggest a dirty tricks campaign by you both.

I look forward to the war in the skies you have begun!

If you like to play war please leave airlinesim. i play airlinesim for fun in my leisure time.

And:

How is the camuxx group involved in this case? i had never took over a airline of you.

i would never use dirty tricks but i heard some rumors about your kind of business.

For example:

Why you establish a airline in the same country short after i establish an airline in that country

(Paraguay, Panama, Senegal, etc.)?

Do you not have any own ideas and must copy the ideas of other players?

Very pathetic … :unsure:

1 Like
13

If you like to play war please leave airlinesim. i play airlinesim for fun in my leisure time.

And:

How is the camuxx group involved in this case? i had never took over a airline of you.

i would never use dirty tricks but i heard some rumors about your kind of business.

For example:

Why you establish a airline in the same country short after i establish an airline in that country

(Paraguay, Panama, Senegal, etc.)?

Do you not have any own ideas and must copy the ideas of other players?

Very pathetic … :unsure:

These are open markets. Why would i not be able to start up an airline here?

Feel free to share those rumors. I'm happy to discredit them all!

14

Yes this Countries are Open markets. But tell me why you have the idea of establish a new Airline RIGHT AFTER i opened a new Airline in this Country?

Too many accidents…

1 Like
15

Yes this Countries are Open markets. But tell me why you have the idea of establish a new Airline RIGHT AFTER i opened a new Airline in this Country?

Too many accidents…

I don't need to explain why i start up a new airline in any country. Otherwise i would be explaining to an awful lot of people why i'm competing with them. 

If your airline beats me, as it did in Senegal, then fair play. But its a game.... and a game of competition. I'm perfectly within my right to challenge you in an open market country. If you don't like this then perhaps this game is not for you

Clearly you feel different, and that's up to you.... but don't keep these issue inside and collude with others to destroy me from the inside. That i have issue with. 

The evidence speaks for itself. Bought straight into my airline. Cancelled all leases. Transferred no planes, sustained no schedules, sold off all assets. Signed only one interline (with you) and all as fast as humanly possible. Why? Well because you knew i could then regain ownership as across all my airlines i had majority shareholding. But damage was done at that point. Granted as 'owner' Sparrow has every right to do this. But the speed in which it was executed shows the real motive!

And if this isn't the case, why were you monitoring Panama Skies main page? This is apparently how Sparrow discovered my Dirty Tricks Campaign comment. After all you're not a competitor in Panama any longer?

Now i don't wish to continue with these message back and forth, I have other things to be sorting out. But i wish you good luck, as i will be paying close attention to the South America Market now! 

16

AS should invent a system, where people can send a message to each other, so everybody else don't have to be involved in arguments like these...

17

It’s already implemented and called “Ingame Message” :slight_smile:

18

what does the pro.7 (German TV station) slogan say?

we love to entertain you

19

AS should invent a system, where people can send a message to each other, so everybody else don't have to be involved in arguments like these...

You can start a private conversation here on the forum where you can add a max of 5 people, it is exactly the same as starting a topic just that it is not public. You can share videos, URL, pictures and youcan thumbnail stuff.

20

...before i actually took control again and came to realize the damage he had caused.

This was no damage but my way to re-vamp the ops. It would have been more "damaging" to introduce one additional aircraft-type, possibly the A380.

But damage was done at that point.

He’d only bought the airline for less than 24 hours. I had not idea until i took back the airline that any damage was done.

You purchased the airline back before I was able to answer your ingame-message with the wish to buy back the airline (e.g. my shares). With no trace of hesitation you hastily purchased back the airline without waiting. I wrote to you that I would be willing to sell but all leases of aircraft were terminated. This was a very important information but you already purchased the airline.

It´s not your task to discuss my way of doing business or how to size and shape a fleet of an airline under my control. Counting the number of Fokker 100s owned by me is funny btw..

Please evaluate your behavior. 

Signed only one interline (with you) and all as fast as humanly possible. Why?

No, the airline also signed with others. What is your problem? The other player sent me an offer and I agreed because it fits into the business. Why? I was in a hurry because I had to go to bed.

But the speed in which it was executed shows the real motive!

This is your baseless presumption. I tend to say that you think that a player like me acts like you. This is not the case. I would have never re-purchased the airline like you did prior to an answer from the new owner. This is btw a strange behaviour and... excuse me, no a wise move because I wrote to you that I terminated all leases with the aim to dramatically reduce the size of the fleet and to re-shape the fleet with more appropriate aircraft. In fact, you took my airline away. You offered the shares, I purchased them and I knew that my approx. 27% would be risky but I would have never re-purchased an airline without waiting for a reply from the new owner. This is some kind of dirty.

 I’m yet to go head to head with Sparrow… but a time will come! 

I am not interested to go head to head with people like you. You accused me with wrong allegations and this is unaccepable for me. I could also post in the info text of Sparrow Air that the airline reached an agreement to get additional slots at Jakarta because I paid millions of dollars to the aviation authorities. Some would grin, others would think that I am stupid, childish but all people would understand that it´s only a game.

Your moves and way of thinking - taking the airline back without waiting for a reply - complaining my way of doing business - open accusation that Sparrow and CAMUXX are working together - is a clear warning sign to me that there are players like you on devau. 

If someone makes an IPO and is selling in total more than 50% of his own shares to other shareholder, it is always a risk of loosing the control. Everyone should be aware of it. The new “owner”/managing director has all rights to do what he think is the best. If the old one likes it or not doesn’t matter. Please be aware of the wording used against other player, as this is not the fault of the new managing director and there are no dirty tricks or similar actions.

Thank you!