customers favorite on old aircrafts

English Boards Suggestions and Ideas
1

It seems that passengers do not have particular feeling regarding the age of the aircraft, even if the aircraft is very very old (say >30 years), when we use good seats and high price, we still can sell the tickets well.

It is abit different from reality, in real life, no matter how good the seats are, if the aircraft is too old, we do not tend to flight with it. it is even strange that old aircraft still can sell high price tickets…

any idea about it? or any possbility of having a change?

In addition, as said before, we have many type of aircrafts that has only manufactured 1-5, I am not sure where the team had that data, but if the game consider it is avaiable for players, there should be more bah…

2

I don’t understand this posting. On the one hand you don’t like how old aircraft are traded in the system (by the way - there is an influence) and on the other hand you dislike that there are not enough of these old aircraft?

3

I think we should differentiate a few things here. As SK already mentioned old aircrafts have a negative impact on your Airlines Image. If you have 10 aircrafts and 5 are >30 Years you will notice it on your Image. If you have 200 aircrafts with 5 >30 Years you will not notice any difference (if the others are 5-10 years old at least). If your comment refers to the new Server then you are right. Since there are so many passengers and only small airlines you can fill up an old plane with heavy density seats and take 200% from normal ticket price… no Problem. Do this on older servers and you wll not attract many passengers. But usually you will see the change over after 4-6 weeks.

I have read the argument that people don’t like to fly with old planes and I think there is something wrong. An old aircraft is not always bad maintained and a new aircraft is not always good maintained. For example a few days back LH served out one of its first 747-400 build in 91 and it was in its lifetime 60% of the time in the air. You only achieve this by excellent maintanance. And that is where people in my opinion should pay much more attention to. Not how good is the Frequent flyer service, the Food on board, the seat pich and inflight entertainment. These are all bonus. What counts is how are the aircrafts maintained and how are the crews and engineers are trained.

4

no, actually I am using old aircrafts, but what I said is in the game, people booked seats mainly based on the standard of the seats, with good seats, an old aircraft like 40 years still can sell ticket at 150% to 200%. The age of the aircraft may have affection, but it seems not that much in the age. It seems abit different from the real life.

5

yeah, you said above has some points. However, if we look at how airlines attract passenagers (always the latest and advance aircrafts), and how we discuss the airlines in real life (are the aircrafts old? service? pencuration? etc.,). If an arline has good seating but operating many old planes, the negative influence will still be there.

If what you said above is correct, why airlines are keep buying new aircrafts? you may say that the maintence and fuel are high for old aircrafts that will make them loss to operate, so they want to change the new one. This is correct on the condition that even the old aircrafts with excellent seating, the ticket price is set, you cannot sell high price with good seating. However, this works in the game, it is different from real life… do I make some point?

6

There are lots of reasons why airlines buy new aircrafts … to name a few …

  1. You are right people tend to think new aircrafts are more safe (4 Eng are safer then 2 Eng), New Aircrafts have nice shiny new Interior, better IFE (maybe new Service latest sleeper Seats etc. Better to advertise …Lounching Customer effect … That I will count as Image factors (In real life as in the game as well) and this is undisputed.

  2. Older Aircrafts will need more Maintanance (its a fact), the tecnology in the aircraft is older and sometimes needed to be upgraded which costs a lot because the Aircraft must be on the ground (even if done during a normal check (Implementation of TCAS, GPS as an example.) Fuel flow will be higher as Engines get older. Performance degradation and induced drag the more cycles an aircraft is doing. Not compliant with modern Requirements (RVSM Airspace etc). Certification Requirements from Authorities, Availabillity of Spare parts and so on. If an aircraft is well maintained you can sell it for a good (higher) Price to others. Aircrafts are Certified normally for a certain number of Cycles. If they are reached it has to be scrapped.

  3. It comes down all to money. If I am not mistaken airlines can write off Airplanes over 25 years (tax reduction), fleet harmonization to safe costs in Spare Parts, Maintanance, Crew Training (Airbus or Boeing Families), Lower Fuel costs, upgrades to future demands, new destinations, expansion or reducing fleet size getting huge deduction from Listing Prices if you oder more

So there are tens of reasons why airlines buy new planes, but the most important by all means is to safe money in the long run.

7

that’s correct… an important factor for airlines to buy new planes is to save money and reduce cost.

Theoritically, in the game, when the plane gets older, when we raise the ticket price and use better seats and service, we still can make good money on very old planes. But in real life, if airlines raise tick price to cover the additional cost from old aircraft, there will be less and less passengers.

In the game, passengers still wish to pay more and more to flight 40 years old aircraft, it is abit weird and unreal…

8

This limit can be extended and this was done with several types. Many aircraft are being scrapped long before they reach their original limits for commercial reasons. However older A320s are close to reach their design goal and it seems that it is financially not viable to extend their lifes (they are more valuable as a source for spare-parts) - hence the planned retirement of "old" A320s and continued ops of older generation aircraft at the same airline on at least one US carrier.

9

Really?

Take a factory fresh 767 and then one 1980’s built sistership that just went through a check and received a fresh cabin. You tell me that Joe pax would really notice any difference?

As for the lifetime limits, there are many different factors to be taken into account. The jets I worked on (mil) were four times beyond their originally manufacturer guaranteed and certified lifetime. Of course this was bought with outrageous costs for maint, upgrades, exchange parts etc.

10

AK. They due notice the difference, people are rerouting there flight to use the A380 instead of the 747. As people feel the 747 is an old plane. Even when airlines use the 747-8

People are not aware of the age but aware of marketing and airlines tell people that they ave a young fleet. See the airline magazines on board the airlines. :)

11

This may be the case for a minority of customers. But you do realize that I was talking about airframe age and not about differences between types?

12

Aviation enthusiats are doing that yes. But lets be honest. The success of Easy Jet, Ryanair and Southwest has a simple Reason. They sell cheap tickets. Most People using an Airline are doing it on 2 main Reasons. 1. Business People that travel quite a lot. Mostly the tickets are bought and provided from the company. Before the Frequent Flyer Programs Companies were given discounts if they orderd x flights per year. Now Companies as I know from friends using FFP cards on companies Name or personal FFP Cards and most companies try to safe costs as much as they can at these challenging times. 2. People flying on Holiday. Most are looking for a nice destination they like to go to, then they look for a hotel, appartment etc then for the Price. And only then they know which airline they are getting. And some are searching then the black lists and look if they want to change because the airline is not what they wanted. Then you have People that whant to fly as cheap as they can using early bookings etc.

People who can afford are looking first with what airline they want to fly and decide then where to and so on. Others don’t care about the costs at all. but these 2 are the minority.

13

I do the opposite. I love nothing more than flying in the upper deck of the Queen of the Skies.

I’ve flown a DC-3 within the last 5 years and everyone who was on the flight loved it. I’m sure those people would have paid more to fly the DC-3 than an ATR or Dash 8 if they had a choice. But I don’t think passengers would do the same for a clapped out 747SP, unless they were real enthusiasts. So I think it really depends on the type of plane and the type of customer.

14

I don’t really agree with the OP that AC age or type has a big effect on number of pax they will get.

Type does have a bigger impact than age.

E.g. I mr pax don’t want to fly for more than about 1 hour in a prop or other similar small A/C like the Embraers.

Why? The seats are even smaller than a standard economy, so it is very uncomfortable.

The props are noisy.

There are many airlines today (2013), who operate MD-80, DC-10, B737-200, A320, Fokker 80, Fokker 40, BAE-146 which are 30+ years old.

North West Airlines now Delta has many of these in the US.

In Africa there are also more examples of these.

In South Africa some of the budget airlines use the older A/C.

In South Africa and in Australia I know of a few tourist operators who specifically use very old planes like DC-3 for example for the nostalgic and tourism purpose.

People pay a high price to go on these yester year planes.

Until only 5 years ago Aeroflot and other Russian and Ukrainian airlines used TU-134, TU-154 A/C extensively which were 30+ years old.

They changed not because these A/C were unsafe, but because of costs to operate them (fuel burn, maint, and 2+ number of pilots required) and the new noise restriction at many airports.

Most people flying care about 1stly the price and safety reputation of the Airline then about service.

Most don’t give a hoot about what A/C they are flying and how old it is, as long as it is comfortable, service is good, and they are pretty sure the engine or the wings won’t come off any minute.

Note I said safety reputation of the Airline not a specific A/C, and that has to do with how well their A/C is maintained, and how well the pilots operate these without issues.

If engines fall off and tyres blow out and causes an emergency, the said customers on board will not likely fly again with that airline, unless there is a good explanation. These events also get lots of news publicity and new customers will think twice before flying with that airline.

Quantas, Air France and Emerites for example in the last 2 years has their reputation tarnished because of the A380.

There were engine issues and airframe issues, and recalls by the manufacturer. Yes these are brand NEW A/C.

Quantas moved their maint to China and now they have more maint related emergencies, they are now considering moving maint back to Australia.

Both AF and QF, had in the last 10 years issues with fairly new A300 type aircraft (not sure the specific model), where their computer systems have issues, electrics or electronics go on fire, hydraulic failures, etc.

From a pax perspective, the issue is not the age of the A/C, it is about how well maintained it is, how safely the pilots operate it and how reliable the actual A/C is.

From an airline perspective, they care about cost and reliability and commonality to minimise training and maint.

Airbus is preferred simply because of commonality in the cabin for the pilots between types, so training is cheaper for example.

Both Airbus and Boeing for example offer the same airframe but different engine options, because for maint purposes, the Airline will try to use the same engine or same engine manufacturer for all their A/C.

E.g. Airline X might have a combination of Boeing and Airbus, but they are all GE engines to safe on maint costs.

And in fact the most expensive part of maint for the airline is the maint on the engines so commonality and special deals with engine manufacturers and maint contractors play a big role in saving money for the airline.

Even the new TU-204 now offers different engines including RR, GE and PW over and above its PS engines.

Of course some times the airline need to overhaul the whole A/C to restore both engines and airframe to a almost new condition, which I believe is very expensive too, and I think is called a D check.

Obviously most airlines will probably want to avoid the D check if they can and either return the lease or sell the A/C before then.

So what I am saying is that there is different factors why an Airline might not want to operate and A/C which as very little to do with the customer’s perception or affects the ticket sales.

For ticket sales customers mainly care about the price of the ticket and the class of service offered for that price.

The cheaper the price for a good destination the more tickets will be sold.

Obviously it is up to the airline to figure out if they can offer tickets at that price given their costs.

The game obviously tries to simulate some aspects of running an airline, but by no means does it simulate the exact conditions and things airlines need to contend with.

E.g. real airlines have different competitors some are private or public companies, some are state owned or semi state owned.

The state owned ones obviously can service non profitable routes or heavily discount the ticket as their objective is not always to make money, but to provide a service to the people or to provide jobs and indirectly feed back into the economy.