I think that pax should be less satisfied with the Dash 8 and other prop aircraft, and my reasoning behind this is that I would rather fly in a loud, old DC-9 than a shiny new Dash-8 Because it is A. Faster, B. Less turbulent in the DC-9 C. Well, it looks better for the airline. The love of the Dash-8 has led to a total of 3272 Dash-8 Q400s being built on Nicosa, compared to 476 orders in real life (again for the Q-400) with 1147 orders for all variants, a little bit more than a third of just the Q400. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Dash_8#Operators
If your argument is that there are more airlines using aircraft, think again, as there have been 660 CRJ-900s produced (all variants) on Nicosa. In real life there have been 333.
While they both have varying numbers compared to real life, the CRJ-900 has a roughly 2:1 ratio while the Dash8 Q400 enjoys a 1:7 ratio. I think that it is clear that SOMETHING is wrong here.
The same with older jets, IRL there are 250 727s of all variants in commercial service: "In July 2011, 23 727-100s and 227 727-200s were in airline service.[2]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_727so, by the same token as the CRJ-900 there should be 500 727s in use on Nicosa, instead, there are a grand total of 12 of all types remaining, I Advocate that there should be a revaluation of Aircraft popularity because there is something off, it wasn't that there were no more 727s left, there were hundreds on the used market. This is a large and underadressed hole in airlinesim's realism.
I didn’t understand your math on the last paragraph. Where did you get the “there should be 500 727’s in use on Nicosa”?
In any case. If this gets attention from the AS team or anyone else who knows: Where are these popularity (image) scores derived from? Is this decided by the AS team, or from a other source?
I understand your view. However I think it is very important to see AS and the real world separately. AS-passengers act differently, think differently and so on. The difference of produced aircraft shows that you can´t compare AS with real world. Many people would avoid a turboprop if they have a choice but this is a different story. Comparing a DC-9/727 :wub: versus Q400 :ph34r: is like comparing ABBA :wub: with a current "Popstar" :wacko: :P
Yeah The 727/ABBA is better than the Q400, that needs to slutify itself :P. Anyways, my math is that if there are 300 CRJ 900s IRL and 600 in AS, that is a ratio of 1:2 Real life to AS so if there are 250 727s left then if the same ratio applies, there should be 500 in AS. I think that they should adjust the passenger satisfaction to show passengers disliking turboprops.
I think that you can´t expact that the ratio of aircraft are adjusted due to the fact that the number of newly-produced aircraft is the reuslt of the players who ordered them. There are aircraft which can be ordered and there are oout-of-production airplanes and we have to deal with the limited number of the latter.
I don´t know the situation on other servers but in Devau there are currently only three 727-200-operators (two companies are under my umbrella!). So, even with an adjusted number of availale aircraft, I don´t see a real demand because of lack of interest to operate these classic jetliners. At the moment I am the the only operator of specific types of aircraft and I don´t thnkthat this will change considerably. This reflects the general view and my affection for classic jetliners.
Btw. I am happy to operate the 727. Sparrow Express operates a fleet of seven 727-200s and a single 727-100. The latter is really difficult to operate, the 727-200 is OK.
I think that adjusting the pax demand for dif aircraft would still make it more realistic. I would rather fly in a Tu-134 which I hear are terrifying than an ATR-72, which suck all 'round.
I suppose all we can do is wait and see if the AS team takes action, I have set a requirement on myself not to use dash 8 aircraft, guess that is all you can do.
My subsidiary Sparrow Commuter operates a rather large (used) Dash 8-fleet due to the field-performance and the family-concept:
62 Dash 8-100s, 8 Dash 8-300s and 11 Q400s.
I can´t ignore the ability of the Dash 8 to serve rural towns. The higher speed of the Q400 i also an advantage compared to the ATR72. Another subsidiary of mine operates the ATR and I really like them personally.
The same with older jets, IRL there are 250 727s of all variants in commercial service: "In July 2011, 23 727-100s and 227 727-200s were in airline service.[2]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_727so, by the same token as the CRJ-900 there should be 500 727s in use on Nicosa, instead, there are a grand total of 12 of all types remaining, I Advocate that there should be a revaluation of Aircraft popularity because there is something off, it wasn't that there were no more 727s left, there were hundreds on the used market. This is a large and underadressed hole in airlinesim's realism.
As for the 727s the numbers on Nicosia are very (very, very) old. They are based on a "snap-shot" method at launch of the particular gameworld, The numbers on Nicosia even might be older, I'm not sure.
We are not going to correct them in a running gameworld.
Please don't use the wikipedia numbers for reference, because
1. There is a reason behind the fact that we don't use the numbers from wikipedia.
1a. These numbers (of 2011) are quite old now, for example the 727-200, Fedex has retired its large freighter fleet in the meantime in favour of 757s, and
1b. these numbers are quite doubtful. What means "airline service"? commercial public service? or are private company charter / VIP service included? Most if not all of 727-100s operated in the last few years were VIP jets owned by private or letterbox companies.
We are counting planes which are in commercial service. Planes in private (company) use, planes with no operators, stored planes destinated for scrap and already scrapped planes, written-of etc. are not counting. So you can be sure on newer and future gameworlds the numbers of 727 will be further decreasing with exception of the planned time-offset feature. ;)
Yeah The 727/ABBA is better than the Q400, that needs to slutify itself :P. Anyways, my math is that if there are 300 CRJ 900s IRL and 600 in AS, that is a ratio of 1:2 Real life to AS so if there are 250 727s left then if the same ratio applies, there should be 500 in AS. I think that they should adjust the passenger satisfaction to show passengers disliking turboprops.
Airlines IRL make their dicions. Nicosia or any other world is a different "world" where airlines and pax make their own decisions. Some things in AS are extrapolated form RL, such as aircraft types, airports etc. but some are tweaked for the game. For example, aircraft performance. Some AC perform better than IRL and some perform worse than their counterparts IRL. Some a/c have been tweaked in AS to adjust their undue advantage. E.g. you can lease 732 for 8.000 AS$. But to mitigate this undue advantage, landing fees etc are 5x higher than for a 736. There are routes IRL that operate daily 757 service, and in AS I got exactly one (1) booking per day, and I was the only one not only operating the route, I was the only one in the whole ORS! You have 100 daily service with 737/320 variety between GRU and GIG, JFK and ORD, LHR and CDG, FRA and MUC, etc. Some things are similar as IRL and some are different. Once you gasp this reality, it will be easier on you :)
I think that adjusting the pax demand for dif aircraft would still make it more realistic. I would rather fly in a Tu-134 which I hear are terrifying than an ATR-72, which suck all 'round.
Just to ask you, have you flown in a modern, brand new A72-600 or Q400?
I would not sit in TU134 even if they paid me, I would rather take a bus or a train. Modern TUs -a different thing. But a 30 y/o TU134, no way.
I would even be a bit afraid on 30 y/o DC9, but I have been reading they were birds made to fly forever..and with good maintenance they can still fly for several years. While I might be a bit hesitant to step onboard one of those, I would for sure not step onboard the TU134.
I have flown in a Dash-8, on a regional flight, and it was hell, actually WORSE than the Cessna 172, it was hot, noisy, turbulant, and cramped.
I have flown on an Air Baltic DH4 recently...granted it is noisy (I was in row 4), but I didn't experience any of hot, turbulent, or cramp - in fact, for a turboprop I was surprised by the generous legroom.
Plus, you said "pax should be less satisfied with the Dash 8 and other prop aircraft". They already are, a DH4 only gives a 2-bar popularity with passengers while others like 737/320 gives 5 bars.
It was a Q300, not sure how old, I have also flown on the 727-200 (-3 Bar) and it was much nicer than my experience with the Q-300 (+1 Bar) so, my new question is, how are they determining the PAX satisfaction? and is it completely arbitrary, or did they ask people at some point?
I guess a lot has to do with "condition adjustment" ... so planes are more or less equal at the end, one has better price, other better rating, other can be got cheaply, other consumes more fuel, other has many units on used market, other costs more in maintenance, etc.
It was a Q300, not sure how old, I have also flown on the 727-200 (-3 Bar) and it was much nicer than my experience with the Q-300 (+1 Bar) so, my new question is, how are they determining the PAX satisfaction? and is it completely arbitrary, or did they ask people at some point?
i had use 727-200 adv and i have always green bars
use better seats and good service, pay good fly crew and you will not have problem with low image of airplane age.