Not enough passengers in Europe?

Game Worlds Croydon
1

Hello,i own a small airline based in Athens,Greece called "Thermos Airlines".At the time i own 2 ATR-210 aircraft while leasing another ATR-210 and a Bombardier CRJ-900LR.

The owned turboprops operate flights from Athens to small Greek airports,Tirana,Sarajevo,Izmir,Burgas doing quite good.

The leased ATR operates flights from Thessaloniki to small Greek airports plus Tirana and Belgrade (just started but seems good).

The real problem is the CRJ,at first i tried flights to major cities in Europe which had no connection with Athens or were connected with 1-2 flights/day.I tried Naples,Venice,Toulouse,Marseile,Stansed etc but the aircraft has max 15/76 pax in economy.

I would like to mention that before croudon i tried nicosia server with a fleet of 737 and again the aircraft had really low pax number.

What is your advice?

Should i try next, ATH to really busy airports like LHR,CDG etc with low prices or should i try flights from Thessaloniki to other airports in Europe without connection?

Thanks in advance

2

Good afternoon.

Unfortunately there is not one possible cause.

Problem could be:

  • Competitors with better seats and or service. (what does your rating say?)

  • No or inadequate Interlining partners. (Write ingame messages and ask for interlining.

  • I guess if you have load at your planes, that your airline has full traffic rights for Greece (or at least for EU Treaty)?

At Nicosia I operate approx 2000 flight from ATH.

Generate transfer guests with flights ATH to HER, CFU, LCA, KGS, RHO, etc.

Afterwards try OTP, FCO, MXP, IST, LHR or LGW .

 

3

Dear quotenbiber thanks for the fast response,i think u gave me a good idea,pls read below and tell me if this is what you meant.

Well,until now my strategy was to cover as many airports possible keeping the maintenance ratio close to 100%.However i just decided to make structural changes in the flights.

Keep in mind that transfer time in ATH is 1.15 while in SKG 1.00.Also 2 ATR and 1 CRJ are based in ATH while 1 ATR and 1 CRJ in SKG. (i leased another CRJ :) )

All domestic flights and flights from/to Tirana,Izmir,Burgas are taking place from 07.00 until 23.30,while flights to European cities (just ATH-CDG-ATH and SKG-CDG-SKG at the time being) began at about 01.00 and 15.30.

E.G. (SKG) A pax who takes the moring flight TIA-SKG can catch the 15.30 plane to CDG,however a pax who takes the afternoon flight TIA-SKG can catch the 01.00 to CDG.

Hope this works.

My ratings in the "overview" panel are one red bar for exonomy and buisness class but i just improved my onboard service,also i use leisure plus seats for buisness and standard for economy.I am still new to the game (i bought my first credits today) so i have not yet bothered with interlining.

Could you also explain the term "full traffic rights"?

Kind Regards

John

4

Hi John,

100% maintenance or close above is good, but I would rather try less airports with a higher frequency.

First of all, base all planes at ATH and remember that your flights need connecting passengers.

Try to connect the bigger airports in Greece and only one or two flights to other European countries. IST is very close and could be a good start for flight outside of Greece.

As passengers could stay onboard of your planes when using connection flights, you may use flights such as SKG-ATH-FCO-ATR-SKG. Passengers from SKG will stay inside the plane from SKG to FCO (ignoring Turnaround times).

The normal lowcost concept is not going to work, so I think seats is what is the key to a better load factor in your case.

This is the reason why I’m not using Leisure Plus for planes bigger than the LET at all.

My airlines often use Comfort Class in ECO and Recliner Longhaul in BUS.

Check out what other players use for ECO and BUS class. Go to the information screen (the globe at the top / within the taskbar) and to fleet list. Here you can choose a country and can see the configuration a player uses for every single plane in his fleet.

Interlining is good, but you should remember there is a player behind the airline you would like to cooperate with. So best is to contact the player with a short message.

Traffic rights mean, that you, as a airline with traffic rights in Europe (EU-treaty) may start from any country within EU-Treaty to any airport within the EU. If you have an airline in UK you may open a HUB in ATH as well, flying ATH to MAD for example, but NOT ATH to IST.

Of cause you may fly LHR-IST, because you have the full traffic rights for UK.

There is an overview within the AS Wiki:

http://en.airlinesim.aero/wiki/index.php/Traffic_Rights

 

5

Hi John,

I agree with quotenbiber in that you need to have interlining agreements. I am in Croydon as well, so be wary of who you interline with. Don't try an airline which is a few days old as they might go bankrupt, or an airline which is going bankrupt. Interline with someone who has a base at MXP, or CDG, e.g. X1 International or BlueSeven are in Milan and they don't care who they interline with because they are so big, that they have flights 24/7 nonstop so you are bound to get connecting passengers.

Also lower your prices a bit, to see if that works or make your service better.

Domestic locations should be a priority. Make sure you have flights to those 3, 4 or 5 bar airports and then have a connection to a flight to CDG or LHR or anywhere.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them!

Billy

6

Hello,i reseted my airline 3 days ago and followed your advices.I currently fly most of Greece and i didnt expect to have that high load factors in very crouded routes.

My problem however is my only medium-haul flight to STN,i started with -20% prices to see how it goes,that means 174$ ticket while competitors is 250$ and 268$ and also made an interlining contract with a really big airline.See for yourselfs.

			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304655'><span>TH 500</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			25.05. 01:30 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			25.05. 04:48 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>8</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>12%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475521'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304657'><span>TH 501</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			25.05. 05:55 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			25.05. 09:13 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>16</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>24%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475522'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304659'><span>TH 502</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			25.05. 16:10 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			25.05. 19:28 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>30</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>44%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475523'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304662'><span>TH 503</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			25.05. 20:35 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			25.05. 23:53 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>7</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>10%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475524'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304655'><span>TH 500</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			26.05. 01:30 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			26.05. 04:48 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>16</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>24%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475525'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304657'><span>TH 501</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			26.05. 05:55 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			26.05. 09:13 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>18</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>26%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>3</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>25%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475526'>details</a>
	
			&nbsp;
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304659'><span>TH 502</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			26.05. 16:10 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			26.05. 19:28 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>34</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>50%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>0</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>0%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>finished</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475527'>details</a>
	
			
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/flights/routes/number/1304662'><span>TH 503</span></a>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/1056'>London Stansted</a>
		
			26.05. 20:35 HT
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/app/info/airports/977'>Athens</a>
		
			26.05. 23:53 HT
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>11</span> / <span>68</span> (<span>16%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:right;"><span>2</span> / <span>12</span> (<span>17%</span>)</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<div style="text-align:center;">--</div>
		
		
			<span>booked</span>
		
			<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://croydon.airlinesim.aero/action/info/flight?id=245475528'>details</a>
7

Note: ATH is UTC+2.

It’s not enough to simply have flights from ATH to STN, you need to have a network of routes that can feed passengers to the ATH-STN flight. Your ATH-STN flights depart at 1410 and 2330 UTC, and ATH has a 1:15 MCT, so you need your feeder routes to arrive in ATH before 1255 and 2215 UTC. Because the ORS journey score also counts layover time, you want to minimize that as much as possible, so call it an hour (this is a random number that I pulled from nowhere, but AS does have a hard limit of 8 hours for connection time), so flights arriving ATH between 1155-1255 UTC and 2115-2215UTC are optimal for feeding connections. It’s possible that one of your competitors could offer a shorter connection through another airport to have a higher overall ORS score than you.

For your 1410UTC ATH-STN flight, there is one connection possibility that falls within that hour window that I arbitrarily chose, flight TH125 from VOL-ATH. TH203 could also be a decent feeder, as it arrives in ATH at 1113UTC, but those passengers are sitting in the airport for just under 3 hours. For the 2330UTC flight, the only feeder flight arriving in that window is TH117 from SKG that begins on 28 May.

From the numbers you’ve given, it looks like the 1410UTC flight is getting some connecting traffic, while the 2330UTC caters to passengers who are starting their trip in ATH. This reflects what I can tell from your schedule.

8

Hi,sorry but i cant really understand what are u saying,i think we suggest the same thing.

All flights to domestic or regional destinations take place between 07.00 and 24.00 (hub time).So ATH-SKG-ATH is back to ATH at 09.19,these pax should take the ATH-STN flight at 16.10 (afternoon flight) while pax arriving at ATH after 15.55 (transfer time 1.15) cant catch the 16.10 flight to STN so the take the flight at 01.30.

Please provide an example for scheduled ATH-STN-ATH flights if possible.

Kind Regards

ithermos

9

You are saying the same thing but draw different conclusions.

Europe is very well covered. While pax could wait at your hub for 5 hours and take the later flight, very few - if any - will, as there are faster connections by the hundreds if not thousands.

10

So shall i change the flight schedule to stn or drop the route for the time being and keep only regional?

11

four flights a day is clearly not working with that many seats and so few connections available, you have to change at least one of the many factors involved. we can not simply answer your questions. depends on where you want to go.

12

I chose STN because there are only 3 flights ATH-STN per day and has a decent traffic,i dont mind if it will be FRA or FCO or MAD.

Anyway i made some changes in the route,see if it  works.

Regards