In any case in the Aspern world, the immediate delivery program which is being implemented nullifies all of this stuff anyway...
No it doesn't, as I have already said above (many times now), it actually makes the situation worse, because there are hundreds of Russian built aircraft in Aspern now, (much more than in real life) yet their production times are still very long.
So a player orders 7 Antonov 148's with their 10 million ASD, if they want any more of these aircraft they will have to wait 60 hours to get just one more. So they can initially get 7 straight away, but in order to double their fleet, they will have to wait over 17 days, that's almost 2 and a half weeks. But if they had ordered 8 Dash-8's (like I did), they will be able to get a new plane in only 18 hours time and double their fleet in only 5 days.
Once again, considering the logic that everyone has given to me as to why Russian aircraft have such long production times, they should NOT have been made available for immediate delivery . . . .
In reality there are 26 An-148's that have been delivered, they have been in service since 2009. That's about 4 years, so a production rate of about 6 a year. There are now over 300 of this aircraft (including the An-152) in Aspern, that would mean that since their introduction in 2009 (using reality as a reference), they would have to have been produced at a rate of 75 a year at least. That's a very high production rate, which should be faster than just 60 hrs. In fact there are 142 An-152's in Aspern now, whereas not even one of these aircraft has been delivered in real life. So we are looking at a production rate of 142 in just one day !!! So even though 142 aircraft can appear out of thin air in one day in Aspern, it will take a player 60 hours to get another one ? I agree with the Immediate Delivery system and that after you've used up your iniital 10 million you should have to wait for new planes to be delivered, but not wait THAT long . . .
As far as I'm concerned, I've just pointed out a 'bug' in Aspern. A few 'bugs' in a radically different game world are bound to happen, this is honestly quite minor and things could have been a lot worse. All I am asking for, is that in light of the present situation in Aspern where there are already hundreds of Russian made aircraft, is that the AirlineSim team at least consider shortening their production times in this game world.
Really ??? Last time I checked used aircraft were available in the real world, but somehow they are not available in Aspern. I actually agree with this decision, because I think it make things fairer, but regardless it is still UNREALISTIC !!!
Aspern is a special configuration server, we are talking about the standard configuration. If you want a special configuration server with higher production rates for russian planes, just write your wish to our support (support@airlinesim.aero). If there is a demand for that, AS may bring up a special server.
Once again, Russian aircraft should NOT have been made available for immediate delivery . . . .
That’s your opinion, and you are free to express it. But it is not a fact, and everyone is free to have a different opinion on that.
miles_r, .....what exactly is the issue? What are you complaining about exactly?
They provide immediate delivery for all in one game world and spell out the rules before the game starts - YOU COMPLAIN!
They give a reality based production rate for aircrafts in other worlds and the rates are there for all to see - YOU COMPLAIN!
What do you want???
If your $10 million is over, then it is over. Those are the rules. You can’t expect them to bend the rules after the fact. Every aircraft has its advantage and its disadvantage (at least they do try to make it so). I am one of those affected by this rule but it does not matter cos I knew the rules before the game started. The wait just means that players have to plan ahead. simple.
Aspern is a special configuration server, we are talking about the standard configuration.
No, I am specifically talking about Aspern. Initially I was in fact talking about all servers, but I have since realised (as the argument has progressed) that this really has to more to do with Aspern.
That's your opinion, and you are free to express it. But it is not a fact, and everyone is free to have a different opinion on that.
Yes, I know that is my opinion. I thought that was quite obvious. When did I ever state that was a fact ?
So just to be clear . . . MY opinion is that Russian aircraft should NOT have been available for immediate delivery !!!
So just to be clear . . . MY opinion is that Russian aircraft should NOT have been available for immediate delivery !!!
:P :lol: :D I am glad that this is only an opinion and nothing else.
Remember that the premise of the immediate delivery was ‘to imagine that the manufacturers had a fleet of white tail products in stock!’. More than most other manufacturers, Russian almost always have white-tail stock available. For instance, right now any Airline in the world could get at least two Sukhoi SSJs delivered to them with a snap of their finger (As long as they have the cash). The same thing with An-148 (right now!!). I can also assure you and confirm that there are a couple of nearly completed and unassigned Tu-204s that could be made ready immediately for ‘cash buyers’. The problem with the Russian aviation (in the real world) as I said before is much more complex than just production rates…
miles_r, .....what exactly is the issue? What are you complaining about exactly?
My issue is that while some things in AirlineSim are in fact incredibly unrealistic (no used aircraft in a game world), other things apparently can not ever be changed or altered because that would make them unrealistic (long production times for Russian aircraft) . . .
I really shouldn't have to explain this to you. We both know that AS is a simulation, we both know that no simulation is perfect, we both know that there are going to be certain things that will be unrealistic, we both know that different players will disagree on what should be more or less realistic. Initially I believed that long production times for Russian aircraft was unrealistic, and people have explained to me why that necessarily isn't so. I don't completely agree with them, but I can understand their point of view. However, when it comes to Aspern, the immediate delivery system has created a situation where there are now hundreds of Russian built aircraft in existence that do not exist in real life, and likely never will. That situation is indeed unrealistic, do you not agree with me ? So in order to make an unrealistic situation, uh . . . perhaps a bit more realistic, I think that another aspect of that game world should in fact be made unrealistic as well in order to compensate. Think about Back to the Future and the Space Time Continuum explained by Doc. An event has occurred (the immediate delivery system) that has caused Aspern to veer off into a tangent that makes it fundamentally different from the reality that we are currently in. In the new Aspern 'reality', Russian built planes have in fact been manufactured at an astonishingly fast rate, and I believe that this should therefor be represented by shorter production times.
YOU COMPLAIN!
No, I am not complaining, I am having an open discussion on this forum with anyone who wishes to join.
Do you have a problem with that ?
No one is forcing you to respond to me, perhaps in the future you should find something more productive to with your time . . .
. . . but anyway, I do plan to spend a whole lot of my time playing in Aspern, so yes if there is something that I do not like, I will COMPLAIN. I am paying money for this game, I am a customer, and I am well within my rights to complain if I see fit.
More than most other manufacturers, Russian almost always have white-tail stock available.
But do they literally have hundreds of 'white-tails' lying around ? Because that is effectively what has happened in Aspern as there are now hundreds of Russian built planes in that game world. Some people on this thread have given some very detailed explanations as to why productions times in real life are so long for Russian aircraft, yet in the magical world of Aspern, hundreds of Russian aircraft can suddenly appear overnight. For most other aircraft manufacturers, there really are hundreds, if not thousands of their aircraft out there in the real world, not so for the Russian ones . . . . as I have already mentioned above, there are only 26 An-148's in real life yet in Aspern there are now 181 !!!
My issue is that while some things in AirlineSim are in fact incredibly unrealistic (no used aircraft in a game world), other things apparently can not ever be changed or altered because that would make them unrealistic (long production times for Russian aircraft) . . .
You are wrong. Every data can be changed or altered, either within the standard configuration, if there is a realistic reason for it, or within a special configuration for just one server, if we see demand for it. Or, of course, if the game balance requires an unrealistic change. The thing is that at the moment we do not see a realistic reason to change it, we see no special demand to create a special server and we see no need for a change in balance. It is your wish that it will be changed, and we respect that, but we can not fulfil all wishes. I'm sorry for that.
To be fair the same could be said for other types...
Are there 438 White tail E195s in the world? or 807 DH4s? or 312 737-700s?
To be honest I think it was the fairest way of introducing a gameworld without used aircraft
No, of course there are not 438 white tail E-195's in the real world, but there are 128 in airline service and there are 482 of the very similar in E-190 in service as well. Whereas there are only 26 An-148's in the real world, yet there are 181 in Aspern. So the number of E-jets in Aspern closely reflects the number of E-jets in reality, but the number of Antonov's is waaay off and is completely unrealistic, because as other posters have explained, Russian aircraft manufacturers, in comparison to American, Canadian, European and Brazilian manufacturers, produce aircraft incredibly slow.
But this is besides the point . . . the fact that there are so many Russian aircraft in Aspern should mean that production times in that game world for those aircraft should be shorter and not 2 or 3 times as long as production times for E-195 and DH4's etc.
To be honest I think it was the fairest way of introducing a gameworld without used aircraft
I completely agree, overall and so far, I think it's been a great idea, but of course there are going to be some problems with it, and this I think is one . . .
You are wrong. Every data can be changed or altered, either within the standard configuration, if there is a realistic reason for it, or within a special configuration for just one server, if we see demand for it. Or, of course, if the game balance requires an unrealistic change.
Hold on, that is not what I said, that is what another poster said . . .
Those are the rules. You can't expect them to bend the rules after the fact.
I was responding to what they had said. But I am glad to know that the rules can in fact be changed . . . .
The thing is that at the moment we do not see a realistic reason to change it, we see no special demand to create a special server and we see no need for a change in balance. It is your wish that it will be changed, and we respect that, but we can not fulfil all wishes. I'm sorry for that.
That is perfectly fine, as long as you actually do understand my suggestion and have in fact considered implementing it. If you ultimately decide to not to make any changes then that is not a problem. If I really felt strongly about it, then I would have sent an email directly to support, but I thought that the topic was more suited to an open discussion with other players in the forum. As you can see, I began this thread simply by asking why production times for Russian aircraft were so long . . .
. . . but just out of curiosity, has the AS team ever actually implemented any suggestions/changes/requests from players before, and if so, could you please give me some examples ? I would like to know that you do actually consider suggestions from players seriously and that I havn't just been screaming at a wall this whole time.
There is 1200 airlines in aspern, all want to quickly grow, so of course demand for planes will be much higher than in real life. It was also stated that manufacturers would have "stockpiles" of these aircraft waiting to be ordered.
I'm sure you wouldn't want a game where you have to wait 2 years before you can start playing due to realistic production times.
Let this be my last entry into what is turning out to be a pointless argument;
In the simulated game world of Aspern, Antonov most definitely WAS able to ramp up production because of a large number of orders. They somehow produced over 300 aircraft overnight, but now they can only produce one in 60 hours ???
I honestly think you need to go out and have a beer or something (spend a little time away from the game) cos you are beginning to sound like you have lost track of things.
First of all, …it is a game that is a ‘reality based’ simulation, but it is NOT real life!!!
When you say ‘reality based’ it means that components of the game (aircrafts, airports, performance parameters and others) will attempt to simulate true life factors as much as possible. However, certain variables cannot be simulated easily such as weather, wind condition and strong customer loyalty based on national identity and socio-political considerations. Nevertheless, one area which the game designer wisely chose to leave opened and which cannot be simulated is in business decisions and choices - this is what makes it very exciting! The fact that as players, if given the funds and the available choices, how different would our decisions and choices be from what pertains in the real world today!
If you use the fact that there are only 26 An-148 in the world as an excuse, …then I will ask you to show me how it is that some game worlds have over 4000 Q400s despite the fact that there are only 457 produced so far. This can also be replicated with other models in the various worlds. Is it possible to have a REAL world in which 1200 airlines are started off within few days of each other with $10 million each?? If we follow your model, then maybe some of us will be waiting till next April to get our first planes delivered! Why should you make one rule for one manufacturer and then demand that the same rule be not implemented for another? What sense does that make?
The point of the game or simulation is to present players with a scenario with as much realistically derived variables as possible and then let them have a go at it! In the absence of real world politics and a bunch of other factors such as limitation of finance or favorable leasing terms, what you have left are the business decisions and strategies of CEOs! And that is exactly what this game is about! What you are witnessing is NOT because the game is unrealistic, …it is precisely because the variables and parameters demand creativity and honest assessment from players! This is what you witness and is possibly what could happen in a world with a level playing field and without politically influenced considerations!
In finality, let me rephrase what I said earlier - the purpose of the game or simulation is to give players credible, reality based 'inputs' and then allow them to decide how they want to use and manipulate those variables to achieve their objectives and purpose. 'Reality based' does NOT mean that you become a mirror image of what is happening in the real world but much rather what it means is that you create your own reality!
You cannot mandate people’s choices or be unfair in executing rules - it defeats the purpose of the game or any simulation for that matter.
I must say that I can't agree with the long production time anymore. Those long production time is actually offsetting the gain from a lower amount of initial deposit. And I concur that the current rate is reasonable and satisfying. There shouldn't be any doubt that Antonov and Sukhoi are building less planes than Embarer and Bombardier yearly. So I can't see any point in shortening the delivery period.
. . . but just out of curiosity, has the AS team ever actually implemented any suggestions/changes/requests from players before, and if so, could you please give me some examples ? I would like to know that you do actually consider suggestions from players seriously and that I havn't just been screaming at a wall this whole time.
Yes, of course. A lot of data about plane specifications, airports, manufacturers was and is reported by mail, proved and implemented in the game. Just take a look at the last update paper, most of these information was send by players (for example, new night bans for russian airports). Next to that, take a look around here and you will see that players were involved in developing the new seating configuration tool (for example). We even have a special forum for suggestions and ideas, some of the older ones are reality on our new server. And finally, the team consists of Admins and Supporters, like myself, who were "just" normal players at some time and then chosen to enter the team because of their ideas and suggestions.
There are, of course, a lot of suggestions we can't implement, because it does not fit in our vision of AS, because the data given were wrong, because we think most of the players do not want such a change, because we can't do it technically, and so on. But that is just normal and doesn't mean that we are not listening. ;)
Russia most definitely IS considered a developing nation, at least by the IMF. Yes, there is a lot of money in Russia, but overall, in comparison to the United States or many Western European nations it is relatively poor. A few Russians are ridiculously wealthy, most Russians are not.
First of all, Antonov is not a Russian manufacturer. It's Ukrainian.
Second, are you really comparing Sukhoi (civilian) and Antonov with Embraer? It’s not about Brazil or Russia (or Ukraine) being more developed, it’s about the enterprise. Sukhoi is great at making military aircrafts, but it’s still struggling to be competitive in the civilian market. Antonov is not even reasonable to compare with Embraer.