Why is there such a ridiculously long production rate for Russian aircraft ? What bearing does this have to reality in any way ?
For example . . .
Bombadier Dash8-Q400A :
18 hours (Canada)
Embraer 195 :
15 hours (Brazil)
Boeing 737-700 BGW :
21 hours (USA)
Airbus A320-200 Light :
21 hours (France)
but then . . .
Antonov 140A -
96 hrs !!! (Russia)
Sukhoi Superjet 100-95 :
39 hrs (Russia)
Antonov AN-158 :
60 hrs (Russia)
Obviously it doesn't take 15 hours to make an Embraer 195 in real life, it would take a few months, same for any other aircraft. But does it take a whole year or longer to make a AN-158 then ?
I can understand if Russian production rates were a little bit longer, but not 2 or 3 times longer than the equivalent non-Russian aircraft. And considering that Brazil is also considered a developing nation, how come Embraers have the fastest production rates of them all ?
Can someone please explain to me the reasoning behind this ? In reality, does it indeed take 3 times as long to manufacture 1 An-158 compared to 1 A320 ???
How many A320 are manufactured per year and how many AN-158 (in reality)?
Or to give the answer - Airbus, Boeing etc. have a signgificant larger production facility and can produce more aircraft in the same time and deliver them faster.
I can understand if Russian [...] / [...]considering that Brazil is also considered a developing nation[...]
You need to be careful with this kind of stuff. At least for Russia I can say they are most certainly not a developing nation. They are one of the richest country in the world
Don’t confuse ‘production rate’ with ‘makespan’. The production rate only tells you, how many products are made within a period of time. It does not tell you, what time it takes to produce just one product itself. So if you need one year to build an airplane, but you have twelve product lines, then you have a production rate of one aircraft per month.
And now take a look at the real production figures of Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Sukhoi and Antonov and you will see that the former ones have a much higher production number than the latter ones within the same time. That’s why the production rate is much slower at Airlinesim.
Besides that, because of several reasons the makespan of russian/ukrainian aircraft is also much longer in reality.
Edit: Damn, the makespan of my post was way to long
You need to be careful with this kind of stuff. At least for Russia I can say they are most certainly not a developing nation. They are one of the richest country in the world
Russia most definitely IS considered a developing nation, at least by the IMF. Yes, there is a lot of money in Russia, but overall, in comparison to the United States or many Western European nations it is relatively poor. A few Russians are ridiculously wealthy, most Russians are not.
How many A320 are manufactured per year and how many AN-158 (in reality)?
Or to give the answer - Airbus, Boeing etc. have a signgificant larger production facility and can produce more aircraft in the same time and deliver them faster.
I'm sorry to be rude or insulting but that is an incredibly stupid explanation. The reason why Airbus and Boeing have significantly larger production facilities is because their aircraft are significantly more popular in real life (for a number of different reasons) on the global market compared to Russian made products. If Antonov and Sukhoi were receiving 100's of orders from big Western airlines like Lufthansa, United etc, then I am quite sure they would ramp up production accordingly.
If Airbus and Boeing were only receiving a handful of orders for their aircraft, do you think they would have such large production facilities ? Absolutely not. Their facilities are only so big and can only produce aircraft so fast because they have the orders behind them to support such a rate of manufacture.
AirlineSim definitely does differ from the real world in that airlines and passengers really could care less if an aircraft is Russian, or European or American. If an aircrafts popularity with passengers is high (perhaps Russian aircraft shouldn't have ratings as high as they do, the An-158 had 4 green bars, which doesn't reflect the reality that such an aircraft would be very unpopular to most Westerners in real life), if the operating economics are good and the price is cheap, then airlines in AirlineSim will buy Russian made aircraft in high numbers. The number one thing that is stopping them is the fact that the production times are far too long. I have noticed that many Russian aircraft have sold relatively well in Aspern, but that is only because 'Immediate Delivery' was available.
I think that shortening the production rates of Russian aircraft is something that the AirlineSim team should seriously consider on all game worlds. At most, they should only take 50% longer to manufacture than the equivalent non-Russian aircraft. I think that is only fair . . .
Russia most definitely IS considered a developing nation, at least by the IMF. Yes, there is a lot of money in Russia, but overall, in comparison to the United States or many Western European nations it is relatively poor. A few Russians are ridiculously wealthy, most Russians are not.
If Russia would be poor, they'd not have a Debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 10% (which is incredibly low) compared to over 100% for US. At least the people I know, some numbers and what I've seen in Russia support my view. Then again it may be a subjective opinion (not living there anyway).
I'm sorry to be rude or insulting but that is an incredibly stupid explanation.
This explanation is not really stupid at all. Of course, if a company receives a lot of orders it will try to increase the production rate. But they don’t have to be successful with that, and especially the russian aircraft industries had large problems in the past to build up a stable production at all. Just for example (because we have discussed that in the last days), the Tupolev Tu-214 is not available for commercial customers, because the production company is not capable of producing enough planes. So even with dynamic manufacturers (which we don’t have) you wouldn’t necessarily see a higher production rate on russian planes even if there is a larger demand within airlinesim itself, at least if we would make it realistic.
If Russia would be poor, they'd not have a Debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 10% (which is incredibly low) compared to over 100% for US. At least the people I know, some numbers and what I've seen in Russia support my view. Then again it may be a subjective opinion (not living there anyway).
OK, so Russia doesn't borrow as heavily as the United States. So what? What does that have to do with a country being poor or developed or not. What about their GDP, what about their HDI (Human Development Index) ? Debt-to-GDP ratio is not a major factor in determining whether a country is developed or not.
I supplied a very good link to a Wikipedia page that gave a very good explanation as to what is considered a developing nation. Russia was definitely on that list. It also said . . . . "There is no universal, agreed-upon criterion for what makes a country developing versus developed and which countries fit these two categories, although there are general reference points such as a nation's GDP per capita compared to other nations". So there is no set-in-stone definition as to what makes a country developed or not, but generally Russia is still considered developing . . .
. . . but perhaps why there is some confusion considering this, is that not too long ago, before the fall of Communism in the late 1980's, there was no 'Developed' and 'Developing', but there was 1st World, 2nd World, and 3rd World. 1st World nations were what are now considered as 'Developed' nations such as the US, UK, Germany, France, Japan, Australia etc. All the Communist countries, such as the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba etc were ALL considered 2nd world, and everything else was 3rd world, countries like India, Nigeria, Brazil etc. After the fall of Communism, most 2nd world countries became 'developing' nations, with a few eventually becoming 'developed', such as the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Poland etc.
Wasn't my intention to bring your topic so off-topic about this. I just speak from my experience of what I've seen. I still stand by what I've said but that's just why I wrote something in the first place.
This explanation is not really stupid at all. Of course, if a company receives a lot of orders it will try to increase the production rate. But they don't have to be successful with that, and especially the russian aircraft industries had large problems in the past to build up a stable production at all. Just for example (because we have discussed that in the last days), the Tupolev Tu-214 is not available for commercial customers, because the production company is not capable of producing enough planes. So even with dynamic manufacturers (which we don't have) you wouldn't necessarily see a higher production rate on russian planes even if there is a larger demand within airlinesim itself, at least if we would make it realistic. ;)
This still doesn't make sense. Specifically . . .
the russian aircraft industries had large problems in the past to build up a stable production
. . . so you are saying that the reason why Russian aircraft have such long production times in AirlineSim is because in real life, in the PAST, Russian aircraft manufacturers had problems increasing production ??? I don't think that anyone 20 or 30 years ago would ever have believed that a Brazilian company (Embraer) could be producing aircraft at the rate it does now.
I really think it's amazing that the AirlineSim team has the magical ability to predict a possible future and know for a fact that if Antonov or Sukhoi received a large number of aircraft orders in real life, that they would struggle to produce them in time. To be fair, this would indeed be a likely outcome, but their is no way of knowing this for sure.
You need to look at the reasons why so few airlines order Russian aircraft in real life today. Does an airline like American choose to order Embraer's instead of Sukhoi's because of faster production rates ? Sure, Embraer can definitely produce a lot more E-jets in the same time that Sukhoi can produce Superjets, but that definitely is not the only reason why American make their choice. I think it comes down to mostly 2 things, proven reliability as well as reputation/popularity with passengers. Russian aircraft still have an incredibly bad reputation among most non-Russian flyers, and that is one of the main reasons why most airlines still won't touch a Russian aircraft these days. This should be reflected in much lower 'Popularity with Passenger' ratings on AirlineSim and not with incredibly long production times. Sure, have productions times a bit longer, I have no problem with that, that does somewhat reflect reality because Russian aircraft manufacturers probably would have at least some problems in ramping up production, but 2 or 3 times longer ? That just seems a bit too unrealistic . . .
I think the current rates of production in A/S are based on the fact that the Russian types typically take longer to deliver in real life. If you take a look at the production rate of the Tu-204 and the An-148/158 in Russia and Ukraine, you will notice that they are mostly only able to deliver 6 - 12 aircraft a year maximum! Why?? Simply put, ...the assembly plants need an infusion of massive capital to transform them into modern production facilities. Much of the current production is still carried out with old labor intensive production methods, manual cutting jigs and obsolete machinery.
To fully understand why this is so, you need a little reference to history. In the former USSR Aviation industry, the manufacturing plants were set up as different entities from the design bureaus. In the years leading to the collapse of the Soviet, there was a lot of financial strain and funds were not allocated to many assembly plants thus causing them to go into decline and necessitating the cannibalizing of some to keep others functional. In the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR, many of this assembly plants and design bureaus found themselves totally unfunded and thus confronted with the necessity and requirement to generate money and survive through capitalistic means - a concept that was entirely foreign to them!
By and large, the Design Bureaus fared better because they were partly funded from government confers to help maintain and design new military aircrafts. The new Russian leadership realized that they could not afford to lose their most brilliant and experienced aviation minds. The assembly plants were however another matter entirely since there was an obvious overcapacity. They each had work forces numbering in the tens of thousands with socialist structures to sustain them - this was the way it was done in the old Soviet when production rates were healthy and demand was planned from the central command. In the new order, it was virtually impossible for the cash strapped Assembly plants to sustain such a structure without government support which was simply not forthcoming. Many of the various Assembly plants had to consolidate, restructure, divest, cut work forces and even sell assets to survive. Needless to say, many of them did not survive!
Today, many of these Design Bureaus and surviving Assembly plants have been integrated and merged into one massive enterprise called United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and much recapitalization has been taking place but unfortunately, old habits and old ways of life die hard! The recapitalization effort is marred with nascent corruption (much of the capital is from the government) coupled with a dose of good old Soviet politics. Thus important corporate decisions are often made through political considerations rather than sound business decisions - this does not augur well in a fiercely competitive and modern business environment! The production facility for the SSJ-100 is already modernized and the Aviastar facility which currently manufactures the Tu-204 is slated for massive modernization and retooling in preparation for the final assembly of the upcoming MS-21 program. In Ukraine, Antonov has been merged with the Aviant assembly plant to create a more cohesive and a single monolithic entity. As is evidenced from recent products, much reform and modernization is taking place but the pace is slower than anticipated because of paucity of funds (Ukrainian government refuses to fund or intervene).
All in all, the real problem can be traced to the simple clash of old socialist culture with modern capitalist demands. Problems are being gradually resolved as new and modern mindsets are being infused and old guards are dying off - part of the problem is that it is tough to teach an old dog new tricks! Unfortunately, in the interim, a lot of great opportunities, needs and openings are not taken advantage of, thus Boeing and Airbus are having a field day…
Unfortunately, in the interim, a lot of great opportunities, needs and openings are not taken advantage of, thus Boeing and Airbus are having a field day........
So you are saying that the reason why Boeing and Airbus are having a field day, is because airlines are ordering their aircraft because they can produce them faster. So hypothetically, if Sukhoi and Antonov were to build vast new manufacturing plants, this would make them much more attractive to airlines ? As I explained above, production rate definitely isn't the only reason why airlines won't order their aircraft.
Simply put, ...the assembly plants need an infusion of massive capital to transform them into modern production facilities.
What, like a few hundred orders for their aircraft, would that qualify as an 'infusion of massive capital' perhaps ?
Once again, I am questioning the logic that Russian aircraft have such long production times in AirlineSim simply because in real life these manufacturers might struggle to keep up with demand if they did receive a large order. If in real life a large airline ordered 200 An-158's tomorrow, do you honestly believe that they would keep producing aircraft at only a 6-12 a year. No, they would do whatever they could to ramp up production as fast as possible. They could very well fall flat on their face in trying to do so, but we have absolutely no way of knowing this for sure . . .
. . . as I have already mentioned, proven reliability is a big factor in real life as to why airlines won't buy Russian aircraft. Reliability is NOT a factor in AirlineSim, planes don't crash and they don't break down either.
I also would like to point out that the long production times for Russian aircraft is in direct conflict with the new 'Immediate Delivery' system in Aspern.
As of now there are 181 AN-148-A's and 142 AN-152's in Aspern, that is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC !!! Based on the logic that people have been giving me above, Russian aircraft should NOT have been made available for 'Immediate Delivery', but considering that they were, I think their production times should be significantly reduced in that game world at the very least . . .
In the simulated game world of Aspern, Antonov most definitely WAS able to ramp up production because of a large number of orders. They somehow produced over 300 aircraft overnight, but now they can only produce one in 60 hours ???
. . . so you are saying that the reason why Russian aircraft have such long production times in AirlineSim is because in real life, in the PAST, Russian aircraft manufacturers had problems increasing production ??? I don't think that anyone 20 or 30 years ago would ever have believed that a Brazilian company (Embraer) could be producing aircraft at the rate it does now.
I really think it’s amazing that the AirlineSim team has the magical ability to predict a possible future and know for a fact that if Antonov or Sukhoi received a large number of aircraft orders in real life, that they would struggle to produce them in time. To be fair, this would indeed be a likely outcome, but their is no way of knowing this for sure.
I don’t see your point. We have to take the past and present situation into account, because we do not the ability to predict a possible future. AS is simulating the real world, so every effect has to come from the real world. That’s why we add airports after they open their gates in reality, that’s why we add planes after they become operational in reality, and that’s why we will add changes in the production when we see them in reality. If you have any sources confirming changes of the russian industry, we will take a look at it.
I am not speculating here, …I am telling you for a fact what the situation is. I do think for instance that the An-140 should have far faster rates of production in A/S since this aircraft is produced both in Aviancor (Russia) and Kharkiv (Ukraine) facilities. In any case in the Aspern world, the immediate delivery program which is being implemented nullifies all of this stuff anyway…
So you are saying that the reason why Boeing and Airbus are having a field day, is because airlines are ordering their aircraft because they can produce them faster. So hypothetically, if Sukhoi and Antonov were to build vast new manufacturing plants, this would make them much more attractive to airlines ? As I explained above, production rate definitely isn't the only reason why airlines won't order their aircraft.
What, like a few hundred orders for their aircraft, would that qualify as an 'infusion of massive capital' perhaps ?
Yes and No! The reason why Boeing and Airbus are having a field day is a lot more complex than just that.
Let me put it this way, for a nation or an entity to excel in Civil Aircraft manufacture, it has to master and get a handle on the four (4) major components of the industry and they are as thus;
1. Availability of Aviation design know-how and technology
2. Ability to fund and establish modern, efficient manufacturing facilities for serial production
3. Having the possession or support of a massive financial component (deep pocket) that will fund and lease out products
4. Establishment of very efficient and solid Product support and after-sales infrastructure
Thus far, the Russian have a very good track record on item (1). They are working on item (2), as mentioned in my last post. They recognize and understand the need for item (3) but as it is, it is still underfunded and there is no real commitment from Putin. They really need to work on item (4) and are actually beginning to succeed in doing so (e.g Antonov maintenance facility in Cuba and Sukhoi product support in the far east).
So, like I said in my earlier post, things are being resolved although the paucity of funds makes it a lot slower than it should be. I believe the two biggest factor for becoming competitive lies with how quickly they can resolve item(2) and item(3). Item(4) will usually follow a decent build up of order in any region. The fastest way? Putin could solve it immediately (Russia has the funds) but unfortunately, Putin is more interested in military hardware and military supremacy than anything else.
On a side note, all Antonov needs is a committed investor/partner with deep pockets and all hell will break loose - Embraer and Bombardier will have something else to contend with.
AS is simulating the real world, so every effect has to come from the real world.
Really ??? Last time I checked used aircraft were available in the real world, but somehow they are not available in Aspern. I actually agree with this decision, because I think it make things fairer, but regardless it is still UNREALISTIC !!!
So every effect does NOT come from the real world . . .
In reality, there have only been 26 aircraft of the An-148 family produced by Antonov, but in Aspern, as I have already mentioned above, there are over 300 An-148/152 aircraft already flying around. This should not have been possible and is incredibly unrealistic, but then you insist on making production times for these aircraft 'realistic' when very little in Aspern actually is . . .
