I wonder why slot purchases were never introduced?
Because with the exception of some airports, slots are never bought. Most airports are not slot restricted, but rather facility (gates/terminals) restricted.
Buying slots (from AS) would not be realistic.
Only some airports are slot restricted (aka slot coordinated) in real life, and even in those cases the slots are not sold, but rather assigned. Slots are “sold” between the airlines and even then, are not physically sold but rather leased out usually in a form of a perpetual irrevocable lease agreement.
What we know as “slot buying” e.g. at LHR, is in reality private agreement between two airlines. LHR airport authority (in our case AS) never sells the slots.
Slot “buying” between private airlines is only known in a handful of world airports, and in some countries is even explicitly prohibited for airlines to sell slots.
Even such airports as EWR are no longer slot coordinated, but free–for-all. The only USA airport fully slot coodinated (IATA LEvel 3) is JFK.
Again, the problem in real life are not slots, but rather facilities (whereas facilities in AS are not a problem). There are plenty of slots in DFW but a lack of facilities. Same goes for most other airports in USA and Europe and other places.
But seriously. An airline that uses 90% of the slots in its hub, is also slot blocking because no other airline can reach that airport anymore. But we see that as a successful airline, not someone who blocks the slots. If CBE tells us that he scheduled a dozen ATR's in Singapore to claim a few dozen slots, that is also slot blocking. But nobody would consider it as slot blocking because he plays on an established server.
I have around 70+% of the market in Zurich I fly there only with 737-900ER and 787 / 747-8. Nobody can tell me that this would be blocking. with those types of planes. I can agree, that a player fills the Airport with ATR's and operates between two big airports, it migth be different. As mentioned, those cases needs to be analyzed independently. There, I expect a lot of work for the new UAB.
I’m also agree and I also saw airlines on established servers, they practise slotblocking.
allow me to repeat myself: you're not blocking slots. You are running a successful airline :-)
I gave the example of CBE and big airlines to show that "slot blocking" is difficult to define. My airline operates 5000 weekly departures out of Peking. I am "blocking" 5000 slots per week. But nobody will say that I am blocking slots. This is not what upsets people. And even if you establish a route to Sankt Moritz with a Pilatus Porter, nobody will say that you are blocking slots.
It is not flying a LET out of JFK that upsets people. It is flying dozens of LET's out of JFK that upsets people, because it is a strategy to claim slots for future use.
@Forexlive: I make a profit of 800 million per week. If you introduce slot purchasing, old airlines like mine will buy slots and new airlines won't be able to get slots. Having to pay for slots may solve the problem when a server starts, but it will create problems later on.
Running successful airlines is having a large network (most likely taking up all the slots in the airport), while 'slot blocking' is using 'tiny' aircraft to take away all the slots in the airport. I think for a new player in the market, both have the same consequence: no slot in the airport they want to operate.
Now i'm confused. What exactly are we trying to resolve on the 'slot blocking' issue? If you want everyone to have a chance using the airport, the only way is simply set the MAX number of departure you can have in one particular airport, and of course, per holding or per player.
as far as I know, we are trying to solve the problem that occurs on new servers. In other words, the use of tiny planes to claim slots for future use ;-)
since LET or small plane more likely be used as a feeder, maybe we can block using any LET, Beech or similar aircraft at the very beginning of the server? e.g. no production for these types of aircraft
since LET or small plane more likely be used as a feeder, maybe we can block using any LET, Beech or similar aircraft at the very beginning of the server? e.g. no production for these types of aircraft
But... What if I want to simulate a little airline in Northern Canada that only flys small planes to small airports? Will that scenario be a big successful airline? No, but it was a fun experiment. I play the game for fun, not to be the worlds most dominant airline. So sometimes I like to fly little planes. Of course I'm not flying those planes into 10 bar airports........
This is a complex issue, and I think, will be a defining issue of how the game proceeds. I know that I have some ideas, as do other candidates for the UAB. It should make for some lively discussion for those who are elected. For what it’s worth, I have seen no one on the candidates list that, I wouldn’t feel I could work with so whoever is elected, it should be possible to come up with a fair and balanced solution. The next step would be making it simple for implementation. Lots of good ideas get tossed around here and I’m sure a solution can be found.
But... What if I want to simulate a little airline in Northern Canada that only flys small planes to small airports? Will that scenario be a big successful airline? No, but it was a fun experiment. I play the game for fun, not to be the worlds most dominant airline. So sometimes I like to fly little planes. Of course I'm not flying those planes into 10 bar airports........
i think it will be another question that whether you would like to start a little bit later than other players. If It's a limited time server, my idea obviously won't work. However, if it's a permanent server, i think it's still possible. and since not a lot of players would like to run small and serve small airports, the slot condition shouldn't be too bad even when you start later than other players. If the existence airlines want to start a division running similar routes, they will still wait until the time you can begin your game. You will face the similar situation even if all the aircraft are available when the server started.
I hope my idea is not putting your business model in a bad condition
recent servers have started without old planes, to avoid that a few players use them to block slots and/or can grow much faster than other airlines. A simple patch could introduce these old planes two months after a new server starts. I am not sure, but I don't think old planes are introduced later on. I wonder if Martin will want to introduce small planes one or two months after a new server hast started ;-)
And I agree with TWAWAir: if you want to start a small airline in Northern Canada, starting a few months later won't cause problems. Nevertheless I think some players may prefer to start on a "fresh" server
Best solution would be embedded in the software. But I don't think that will happen soon. So I would just tell people their airline will be deleted (reset) if they operate planes with less than x seats out of an airport that has more than x bars during the first x weeks.
One thing is obvious from this thread. There is no easy simple solution. A goal I had with starting this thread was to see if there was any agreement on plane size for large airports. I will give an example now. Early on in the latest quimby airlines was apparently warned about flying tiny planes, so they then moved up to an 140 and obviously thats still small.
Here is a wild thought, I haven't fully considered. How about limiting the number of planes a new airline can have sort of like India restricting new airlines from going international at start up. For example 10 planes per month. Any thoughts?
I think the problem for your solution is not all the planes are equal. If someone really wants to go regional as a feeder of another company (basically using RJs), their growing speed will be extremely slow. and you can't stop some players using tiny planes to run extremely short routes to block the slot. Nice thought though :)
limiting the number of planes an airline can have (at any time) would certainly postpone the problem. Slowing down the growth rate with rules like "10 planes per month" would also postpone the problem. But in the end every big airport will have slot problems.
However, postponing that moment increases the lifetime of a server. I am not against measures that slow down growth.
I know one thing though... limiting growth to 10 planes per month will get you covered with tar and feathers :D
The problem is not that one airline grows faster than another airline. The problem is not that one airline uses LET's and another airline uses A380's.
The problem is that slots are a limited resource and that AirlineSim is not a stand-alone game on your computer. If I use all the slots, it is at the expense of someone else. Someone who also pays for his credits. But an airline simulation game involves competition so people will always fight over the slots.
Is there a way to slow down the speed at which airlines occupy slots ? Something that is programmable and that does not destroy gameplay ? Then you have found the holy grail ;)
Slowing down growth or curbing profitability is certainly something I would support.
In real life, airlines are constantly struggling to make money, while here in AS it seems for me, most work like clock works and are like printing money. Riem is much more challenging, yet even there the big airports are full and slots very scarce. So yes, it is a very tricky and difficult question.
And even the suggestion to increase slots independently from real life is not a solution a majority can be found for.
recent servers have started without old planes, to avoid that a few players use them to block slots and/or can grow much faster than other airlines. A simple patch could introduce these old planes two months after a new server start…
Wouldn’t be a problem at all if the aircraft market would finally be modified to a real useful state as I suggested more than once.
Such aircraft wouldn’t be cheap if the market would actually function.
Now i'm confused. What exactly are we trying to resolve on the 'slot blocking' issue? If you want everyone to have a chance using the airport, the only way is simply set the MAX number of departure you can have in one particular airport, and of course, per holding or per player.
Actually, that wouldn't be unrealistic. IRL a single airline holding, say, 80% of slots at an airport would raise issues with anti-trust authorities (see how BA was forced to release some of the LHR slots it gained when purchasing BMI, for instance).
while here in AS it seems for me, most work like clock works
The way I see it, it has something to do with the way the demand is distributed and/or created. IMO the current system creates a point I'd call critical mass. An airline at this point has so many connections they can open a route to anywhere and make money which is why some holdings consist of thousands over thousands of aircrafts. While I don't suspect the in-game demand to be infinite, in reality it is. In regards to "Riem", I believe reducing demand only stretches out the point when critical mass is reached, making it harder for new entrants but not eliminating the effect.
I'd say connections need to be penalised a lot more. In the ORS, a direct routing may be in competition with hundreds of connections and they all get some form of demand, leaving only very little to nothing for the airline that offers a direct flight.
independently from real life is not a solution a majority can be found for.
Well, conversely I wonder if restricting fleet sizes towards a real life ballpark would find a majority. American Airlines Group (with contractors) has nearly 1.500 aircraft and is said to be the largest fleet in the world. In AS however, this is lower middle field.
in real life, many people are in favor of fair trade and sustainable economy. You would expect players to follow their believes and opinions. But strangely enough, you see the same processes in the game as you see in real life ;-)
Anyway, some people will always try to have the biggest. Either to compensate for something or because they are competitive by nature. If you make it more difficult to grow, they can still compete. The one player with 750 planes will still be bigger than the players with 700 planes.
I guess some players will more easily accept financial measures than strict limits. But for me it wouldn't matter.
So you could put a limit on the number of slots a holding can have at any given airport. That number can be a percentage of the available slots or a fixed number. Or you say something the first 500 departures are free, then a tax of 500 to 1000 dollar per departure up to 5000 departures. Above that you could then ask 5000 to 10000 dollar (or more) per departure. Price depending on the size of the airport.
Same for planes. Either a maximum number of planes per holding, or a tax that kicks in of you operate more than 100 planes and increases heftily when you want to operate more than 500 planes.
As for the slot blocking with small planes on new servers. The landing fees have been increased to discourage the use of small planes at big airports. But were the landing fees increased on existing servers ? I ask because the cost per passenger (on the Tempelhof server) is twice as high if you land a 787 than if you land a L4T at PEK airport. That's not how you discourage people from using small planes at big airports ;-)
Why not a flat rate according to airport size ? It's not as if you give a big advantage to jumbo's and dreamliners. They are not used on short flights (long turnover) and after a long flight the landing fee is a negligable part of the total cost.
I am sure that limiting growth would increase the time that game worlds remain attractive to new players.
Cheers,
Jan
@Matth
apart from the "reality" discussion, more slots would not solve the problem. If there is no limit to growth, more slots would result in bigger airlines. If you add 10% more slots, we shall add 10% more planes.
the discussion is based on limited slots. It caused the slot blocking issue. Why we have limited slots in the game? Because the realworld has the limitations? But is realworld has so many airlines like in a several month old game servers?
If in the game has no limits on slots, who cares about slot blocking, who cares about smallest plane can be used on certain route. And even the old servers can be merged into one to allow more efficient use of game resource and increase competition.
the discussion is based on limited slots. It caused the slot blocking issue. Why we have limited slots in the game? Because the realworld has the limitations? But is realworld has so many airlines like in a several month old game servers?
If in the game has no limits on slots, who cares about slot blocking, who cares about smallest plane can be used on certain route. And even the old servers can be merged into one to allow more efficient use of game resource and increase competition.
There was a thread recently with a suggestion proposed by Matth, where we discussed that rich airlines could build runways to increase slots, with this being a very expensive proposition, taking some time (maybe weeks) and every airline could then benefit. Unfortunately, most people shot down the idea :-(