The Future of Politics

WOW!!

 This makes real life politics seem like a boy (or girl) scouts convention. It also goes to prove an old English phrase that “People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”. I am sure that many screen writers would be glad to get hold of this and make it into a movie franchise! It amazes me that so many people are so passionate about this simulation. If the governments of the world showed this much passion much more would get done to resolve the challenges that we face globally.

There are several things that have come to light from the discussions that have been going on over the last few days, not least of which is the need for some clear leadership as to how we all move forward.

As a relative newbie to the simulation I have learnt most things the hard way (cost lots of AS$) and gleaned vast amounts of information from the various forum threads (many thanks to all that have posted) and from what can only be described as a very outdated wiki.

I would like to thank Martin & the Team for clarifying the situation regarding the allegations against some of the people that were offering themselves as candidates in the UAB election process. As these are at the time of writing UNPROVEN ALLEGATIONS (however there is no smoke without some sort of fire) we can all see from the number of posts that have been made the strength of feeling that exists within the community concerning FAIR PLAY.

IMO the only way that this can be achieved is by having CLEARLY DEFINED rules published in their entirety for all players to see and abide by.

I accept that this is in no way a small task but would suggest that the UAB look into this as a matter of urgency as all of the candidates have stated in one way or another within their proposals that they wish to ensure FAIR PLAY.  I would like to think that is what we all want both old and new players, to enable us to pit our wits against each other in fair competition on a level playing field.

The other criticism that seems to have become apparent is the lack of transparency that UAB decisions seem to have. As many of these decisions could result in changes to the rules would it not be better to publish a summary of the allegation along with the outcome?  I feel sure that this would go some way to alleviate some of injustice that some people feel, particularly if at the time of the offence it was not deemed to be illegal within the rules that applied at the time but has subsequently resulted in a rule change in the spirit of FAIR PLAY.

All published UAB decisions could then be incorporated into the rules. This I would like to think would go some way to reducing the workload of the UAB in regard to rule transgressions.

This would also allow the rules to evolve in line with the evolution of the simulation as Martin and the team add more features.

I would welcome the views of the UAB (both existing & Candidates) and the team on my views along with the views of any others as to whether this is a possible basis for a way forward. I have no wish to see the mudslinging that has taken place recently be repeated as I feel that this level of passion would be better directed to taking this simulation to levels that we have yet to reach.

Ken

The problem is that you cannot find rules for everything. There will always exist gaps or holes in the system. Same for real life, f.e. tax laws.

If someone is trying to find a gap or hole then he will find it. While using and exploiting these holes is legally seen correct, it does not mean that it is fair.

But yes, I also agree that rules help to guide a growing community.

I agree that you cannot legislate for every eventuality. If you have a set of published rules to guide all players as a base line then all cases that are referred to the UAB as possible rule transgressions or violations of FAIR PLAY, can, once adjudicated on be added to the rules.

As in real life legislation changes constantly as loopholes are found and brought to light by the actions of those that wish to exploit them. The community is very good at self policing the actions of those that wish to exploit the loopholes & bugs that they may find. What we need from the UAB is effectively a “Court System” to rule on these violations as to whether they are in violation of the rules or the spirit of fair play.

If there has been no transgression then the individual concerned has better business acumen than their competitors and good luck to them. If there has been a transgression then the rules need to be changed to prevent the loophole or bug being exploited by other like minded individuals.

The rules as they are in real life are a “living” document that we have all signed up to when we join this community.

The role as I see it of the UAB and this is only my opinion is to act in the interests of us all, both the team and the community to ensure that the playing field is as level as it can possibly be.

As they are all elected members voted for by us the community just like real world politicians their mandate is to represent all of us new and old, large and small. There assistance in publishing the rules is IMO vital. The publishing of their decisions concerning their adjudication over matters that have been referred to them goes hand in hand with the publication of the rules so that all can see that the matter has been dealt with fairly and in compliance with the rules. If they are dealing with a new situation that has not been covered by the rules as they stand at the time the investigation of the transgression was started they will be able to show the reasons behind their decision and amend the rules accordingly.

This way there can be no ambiguity concerning the decision and the rule change and hopefully no more hand bags in the playground where people have different interpretations of what they thought the rules were.

We have all had the opportunity to vote for the UAB members and will have the same opportunity to do so next year. There are a lot of people that want to be on the UAB and I am sure that those who are unsuccessful this time around will try again next time. It is therefore up to those that are successful on this occasion to make their mark on the UAB and ensure that the pledges that they have made in their personal statements are lived up to with the same level of passion that they have shown in the debate that has been going on in the forum for the last few days.

Ken

What would be needed first would be rules that are actually binding on the level of contract between the players and simulogics GmbH. There must be a foundation you can start working on. 

Then, I agree, a nice mixture between common law and civil law (i. e. Werkmietverträge for German users) could be implemented with a fast and precise jurisdiction, reacting to newly opened gaps and bugs within short time. 

Hi Ken,

there are rules. The best rules are the limits embedded in the software. They just don't allow you to cheat. Then there are rules which are listed. These are also clear, if you fly between Heathrow and Stansted, you break the rules. And there are rules which are vague or can be interpreted in different ways. These rules are rubbish to work with, but the reason why they are vague is often clear: a simulation game should not tell you how to run your airline, or, what is acceptable if you run an airline from on Mariana islands is not necessarily acceptable if your hub is JFK.

But there is safety net. The wiki gives us a definition of cheating: All user transactions which provide a single company, holding or account with more credits or in-game economic advantages than they would ordinarily have, through the use of real money or the game's internal resources or functions.

Most effective part is to bring as much as possible rules in the first category. Since the latest patch, a 5 million dollar company with an 800 million dollar subsidiary is now worth 805 million dollar instead of just 5 million. You won't need a judge anymore for such cases  ;-)

Apart from that I agree with you. We need a good team that produces strong cases, so I wise UAB can make the right judgment.

And for everything that cannot be put in strict clear rules, the growing list of published judgments should indeed be a guideline for players.

That will however require a team and a UAB that feels supported and recognised. And as important, it needs members who understand the concept of intellectual integrity.

@Syriana

you mean something like  "All user transactions which provide a single company, holding or account with more credits or in-game economic advantages than they would ordinarily have, through the use of real money or the game's internal resources or functions" ?

Cheers,

Jan

No, as the wiki is not part of the contract it's useless as the foundation I described.

Also the rule itself you stated is not clear. It's not an economical advantage to gain control over an airline, especially as - before the latest patch - ordinarily mechanisms worked and therefor rendering the rule useless. To be honest it's clear the rules (and other things...) were not written by someone who has experience and deeper education in law.

In my opinion a new rulebook should be done in a good and professional way, not just again including more holes than a typical Swiss cheese.

@ Syriana:

What you are proposing is Quatsch mit Sosse. The holes in a game are always there and there will always be people who learn how to profit from these given holes. If you want rules like laws in a legal form like Werkvertrag, then you might be in the wrong community here. A Werkvertrag or written and detailed AGBs are no game rules. The rules in Wiki or somewhere else spread around are outdated and need to be renewed indeed. But not written by someone who is educated in law but who has the head on the right place. That is needed.

You may apply as a law consultant for simulogic to create them the AGBs which are not powerfull enough according to your latest posts.

Jan,

I wanted to stay out of the forums and these discussions for the time being but your post made me react :slight_smile:

If you take literally “in-game economic advantages than they would ordinarily have, through the use of real money or the game’s internal resources or functions” than everybody that leases / sells and accepts aircraft for less than 100% is cheating. Because that would be the literal application of such statement to a 10% aircraft lease or sale. Let’s take an aircraft buy at 10%. You buy a 70 million aircraft at 10% while you have 50 million in a bank. You now have an aircraft which you otherwise could not have purchased if you purchased it from the manufacturer, because you would need to pay 100% price. SO both seller and buyer have now broken such (illogical) rule Or you lease 20 cheap aircraft from alliance member at 10% while if you leased from factory, you could lease only maybe just 3. You have now received in-game economic advantage through the use of game’s internal resources. But here, nobody says a thing, because the fleet management allows you the select aircraft sale/lease price in 10% increments, from 10% all the way to 100%.

The moral of the story is you cannot have your cake and eat it too (for those who do not understand this, you cannot have it both ways).

The same goes for stock buy/sales at +/- 10%, the game physically allows it, so if you generate a profit from a stock trade you have actually used game’s internal resources and functions, and you would not have otherwise generated that profit. This goes on the same for other actions that you can take in airlinesim. Actually half of Airlinesim gameplay could be in violation of this rule, technically, the way it is worded.

For example, a player could accuse you of cheating because you have interline with Airline X, and therefore, you get economic in-game advantage of more booking than you would otherwise have if also the other player had the same interline with Airline X (passengers would then be split between you two in theory). Also, a player could claim that you are cheating because you get to rent terminal at AS$7.70 per passenger while he has to pay AS$11, and had it not been for a friend who rented you the terminal (and who does not want to rent it to your competitor), you would pay more and thus are getting in-game economic advantage through the use of game’s internal functions. Or that you charge more for larger seats and therefore can fill aircraft faster and even more profitably… it does sound silly, doesn’t it? But the way that supposed rule is worded, you are in fact cheating. That rule is so ambiguous that it can be applied pretty much to anything in AirlineSim. Name a “normal” action and I will counteract with claim how exactly it is, in fact, breaking that very same rule.

Of course, an argument can be made that there is a difference between how action / game mechanics is intended to be used, and how it is in fact, used. Well, in real life Boeing 757 was never intended to fly Trans-Atlantic, yet it is doing exactly that in heavy numbers for American, Delta and United. In Airlinesim, the game mechanic (aircraft performance) allows you to fly farther than you could in real life, 737s and even 321s are used on Trans-Atlantic. I can bring up a good case that this is in violation of such ambiguous rule. So even if we take “as intended - as used” argument, we get back to the cake … you cannot have your cake and eat it to. You can not say not intended but possible and fine to use for aircraft performance and operational part of Airlinesim, yet claim the opposite for accounting and financial part of Airlinesim, saying not intended so not fine.

The mentioned rule has such a shaky wording, it is so ambiguous, that in all practical terms in Airlinesim, it is absolutely useless in its current form and wording. Was this a law in real life, it would have been struck down already 10 times a long time ago.

5/800/805/2000 … those are just numbers that really do not say much. If a certain action is not prohibited but physically allowed by the way the system is designed, that means there is no rule breaking. Now, that there is no rule breaking does not mean the outcome is a “right thing”. But we must separate between what we wish should be prohibited and what is prohibited (or in reverse, what is allowed and what we wish “only should be” allowed).

In real life, if there is a tax loophole, and authorities find it, they close it and enact a change/amendment of law.

I find it really necessary that certain areas and behaviors be more specified. And yes, they can be specified on a case by case basis as they “appear” and are reviewed.

In real life, there exists a (legal) concept of Ex Post Facto. This basically means that retroactive punishment for laws enacted now is not allowed.

Germany, for example also subscribes to this legal doctrine, as Article 103 section (2) of German’s Basic Law (constitution), p.89 states that an act may be punished only if it has already been punishable by law at the time it was committed (specifically, by written law, as Germany follows civil law).

The correct way to proceed in any UAB case where we do not like the outcome of action but the action in itself did not break the rule, is for the rule pertaining to such specific action which we do not want to be repeated by others in the future, is for such rule to be created and published in some easily accessible “rule book”.

However, the player who engaged in such action cannot be punished for such action at that time, we must live with the results, however much we dislike the results. That is the legal doctrine of Ex Post Facto. The new rule does, and can have effect, only from the moment it is published, for any future actions. That is the correct way to deal with any cases now and in the future that are brought to UAB, and where no existing rule was directly broken.

This is reflected in another legal concept and doctrine, Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege. (Latin, No crime (can be committed), no punishment (can be imposed) without a previous penal law). It is a basic maxim in continental European legal thinking, authored by Paul Johann Anselm Ritter von Feuerbach as part of the Bavarian Code in 1813. This maxim states that there can be no crime committed, and no punishment meted out, without a violation of penal law as it existed at the time. This basic legal principle has been incorporated into international criminal law. It thus prohibits the creation of ex post facto laws.

So for as long as UAB actions are sort of “airlinesim criminal trial” because a player can be accused, needs to defend himself, and can be punished, meaning UAB is a virtual criminal court of Airlinesim law, where the law are published rules, the “airlinesim’s court of law” should also abide by the Ex Post Facto doctrine and Nullum Crimen Nulla Poena maxim.

What you are proposing is Quatsch mit Sosse. The holes in a game are always there and there will always be people who learn how to profit from these given holes. If you want rules like laws in a legal form like Werkvertrag, then you might be in the wrong community here. A Werkvertrag or written and detailed AGBs are no game rules. The rules in Wiki or somewhere else spread around are outdated and need to be renewed indeed. But not written by someone who is educated in law but who has the head on the right place. That is needed.

You may apply as a law consultant for simulogic to create them the AGBs which are not powerfull enough according to your latest posts.

Of course holes can be closed, other companies do this on a regular basis, for example Blizzard with World of Warcraft. 

I also have not mentioned Werkvertrag (§§ 631 ff. BGB) but Werkmietvertrag (§§ 657 ff. BGB), one of the strongest examples of what could be compared to common law in the German jurisdiction.

What happens when someone not educated in law is making rules is what we have now: Team members admitting the rules are bad and not working. 

If simulogics GmbH is willing to skip the nonsense accusations against me I'd be at least willing to tell them what is wrong. I do not dislike the game or the work they put into, I even do not dislike the whole AS team. It's just business.

However, that is derailing this thread. A good foundation is needed as everything else would fail, as good as it might be, like a house of cards.

Right - Blizzard has how many employees? And how many are working for simulogic? Comparing Apples with... I don't know what.

:)

This also results in another legal concept and doctrine, Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege. (Latin, No crime (can be committed), no punishment (can be imposed) without a previous penal law). It is a basic maxim in continental European legal thinking, authored by Paul Johann Anselm Ritter von Feuerbach as part of the Bavarian Code in 1813. This maxim states that there can be no crime committed, and no punishment meted out, without a violation of penal law as it existed at the time. This basic legal principle has been incorporated into international criminal law. It thus prohibits the creation of ex post facto laws.

This is not from this author  It comes from Roman Law that aplies for criminal court only (não existe crime sem prévia culminação legal), you have been studing, but this is not a court of real life it's a game and being a game you are not protected by any legal instruments that can be used in a Criminal Court, this is more like a fraud case, and yes in a fraud you can be charged even if it isn't tippyfied in black and white is more like a court that measures actions between enterprises and judge if that is or isn't bad for economics in a hole.

So your defence should work on a Criminal Court not in a Finance Court.

By the way I'm a lawer and have experience on ROMAN LAW and COMMON LAW also.

Best Regards

 

Of course Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege comes from Roman Law (that's why it is in Latin, right? Don't insult my intelligence please!)

But Paul Johann Anselm Ritter von Feuerbach is the first one to successfully implemented these legal concept in the industrial-age continental Europe, by including it in Bavarian Penal Code in 1813.

Maybe you can go ahead and argue with legal and history (text)books, Mr. Lawyer! Also maybe you would be so kind and offer your services pro bono to Airlinesim in drafting, specifying, and implementing the (new) rules. Now that would be something I would applaud you for!

(btw There are no "Finance courts", maybe in Brazil but not in Europe or USA and I have lived throughout Latin America and I have not seen any kind of "finance courts" there. But I admit I have not lived in Brazil. In all other places, cases are dealt in criminal courts. When IRS sues you, it is a federal criminal court that deals with you, and I am sure the same goes on for other countries) Nevertheless, the Ex Post Facto apply to civil law in many countries as well. But in Airlinesim / UAB case, we are talking about "airlinesim criminal court", because you can be punished.

P.S. Please, stop trolling. There is no more food today to feed the trolls.

P.S.2. Your font and style typography somehow does not resemble a high-end lawyer. Using huge fonts is the same as using all caps. Just saying ...

[...]

By the way I'm a lawer and have experience on ROMAN LAW and COMMON LAW also.

[…]

 

Obviously not in Germany or German law, as this is a very easy and basic contract law case. It has absolutely nothing to do with something criminal. There are also no explicit financial courts in Germany for disputes between individuals and private companies. By the way I'm not a lawyer but your claimed experience and education don't seem to be worth too much.

Right - Blizzard has how many employees? And how many are working for simulogic? Comparing Apples with... I don't know what.

:)

You don't need many people involved to get such a thing done in good quality. Like, I guess one would be needed as 0 might be a low as an estimate. :) As in most aspects of life quality is important, not quantity.

 By the way I'm not a lawyer but your claimed experience and education don't seem to be worth too much.

Is the personal insult really necessary?   I would think someone who is running for the UAB would be above doing that on an open forum. 

This was no insult as it was the result of my explanation and, at the same time, is just my opinion out from observation, not just in this post, but from his others posts, too. 

I'm also not too much enthusiastic about my UAB chances anymore after martin's thread, so yeah, I think I can go for that statement.

Obviously not in Germany or German law, as this is a very easy and basic contract law case. It has absolutely nothing to do with something criminal. There are also no explicit financial courts in Germany for disputes between individuals and private companies. By the way I'm not a lawyer but your claimed experience and education don't seem to be worth too much.

You don’t need many people involved to get such a thing done in good quality. Like, I guess one would be needed as 0 might be a low as an estimate. :slight_smile: As in most aspects of life quality is important, not quantity.

You shall receive my report for the racist insult and that show the kind of person you are.

After that about Rubio you shall also receive the same report because your statements about my country and my person

About the rest is the same all talking and strategy to bend everything that is said on your guys favor!

Which racist insult? Point it out. As a lawyer this should be no problem at all for you, even you failed totally in pointing out where I have violated AirlineSim terms and conditions for the past 72 or so hours.

From Now on please don’t direct your words towards me you showed your self as you think you superior of everything so please note that for the game you are a Virus and you positioning of superiority show how bad you can do to a cumunity as you are doing! You are ruining a 10 year game with the mess you did.

@ bcavalini

So bcavalini, you can't point any racial insult from my side even you claimed there is one 15 minutes ago. This was of course expected but it's good to see your lawyer qualities in action again, bcavalini.

I once heard I would be poisin for relationships of others and another time I'm like cancer. But cancer is not a virus, is it? So this would be a new one for me, I guess. Can you, bcavalini, tell me what kind of virus you see in me? Maybe using WHO-Standard-Measuring-Methods, bcavalini?

Syrianna please don’t direct your words towards me I’m on my cell when I get home I’ll point the racist insults I’m my report and that’s all… just you to notice every time you talk you insult even more and that will also be in the report.

PLEASE DON’T YOU DIRECT YOUR WORDS TOWARDS ME RACISTS SHOULD BE VANISH LONG TIME AGO.