Flights outside European Union

English Boards General
1

Guys, a company which it's home country is France shouldn't be able to operate flights from UK to outside European Union, isn't?

On my understanding, if a company is legally from France, it should be able to operate flights from UK only to inside EU. But there is a company from France, which is being based in one of the London Airports and it flies to:

Atlanta
Chicago O'hare
Detroit
Istanbul Sabiha Gokçen
Kyiv Borispol
Moscow Domodedovo
New York JFK
Pristina
Saint Petesburg
Sarajevo
Skopje
Washington Dulles
 
All outside EU, and the major part are fully booked.
 
 
Don't know if I am wrong, but...
 
And it is on Quimby server, by the way.
2

Yes, he can do this flights, but he get no direct passengers because of missing traffic rights.  It´s not allowed for the fictive UK passengers to book a flight e.g. LHR-ATL operated by a french based airline. The passengers on board of the french aircraft departing from LHR are all transfer passengers of this french airline from France.

 

In other words, you can operate flights from another EU-country than yours to outside the EU-treaty, but than you will get no passengers from the departing country. When you do this, you need a very good network to get your longhaul planes full, but its still risky.

edit:

I don´t know exaclty what about passengers, let´s say from the netherlands or norway, wich are transfered by the french airline to LHR. Are they allowed to book AMS-LHR-ATL???

(or only french passengers from france?)

3

I have found the company in question - and it dosen't look right. But to be honest, I don't know about the Quimby rules, since they are different from other servers. On normal servers, this shouldn't be possible.

I can see that the company haven’t been reported. Try to do that, and I am sure SK will look into it.

(The company in question is a very creative company, let me put it that way!)

4

What Skywalker explained is fully correct. This is valid for all Servers.

There is a similar discussion at the German Forum as well.

But to fill those flights, you need a lot of flights from France to LHR... This works in general just for very big Airlines

5

Well, considering passengers from connectionflights i don't think this quite make sense.

For example this company have 3 daily flights to Chicago O'hare, operate this flights with 737-900ER HGW, this plane have capacity for 220 passengers, counting that it has more or less 150 passengers in Economic Class, this 3 daily flights are fully booked in the economic class. What would mean 450 daily connect passengers to a single destination...

For me seems to be at least strange... Have reported the company, anyway.

6

I opened a test account on Quimby. I checked ORS.

Finidings: He has no rights from STN to nonEU countries (e.g. STN-ORD).

These flights will not show in ORS.

SO far, so good .... but now comes the "BUT".

The connecting flights do show in ORS, if you do CPH-ORD, he is there fully booked.

So I guess he gets the connecting passengers from other EU countries to fill his non-EU STN-based flights.

7

So is this ok within the game rules? I'd guess so. Seems a very good idea to tap into other markets.

8

The traffic rights are explained here:

http://en.airlinesim.aero/wiki/index.php/Tutorial/1.5/Expert_Knowledge/Traffic_Rights

So if these flights shall have no traffic rights but do in AirlineSim, the airline should have reported this to us otherwise it might be a bug using ;)

We have some reports but I personaly did not managed to check them and the traffic right constellation so far but this will be done within the next later today.

9

I don't think he is fully aware of what he is doing. It might be an interesting way to tap into other markets. But since all his flights are London based, it would make much more sense that I he opened his base in London in the first place (instead of France). He probably made up his mind when launching his company and decided flying from London in stead somewhere out of France. Not being fully aware that it is not allowed to fly with an EU based company from London to non-EU.

It would be a different, more complex story if it was the case that he also had a big hub in France and than opens a new one in London and flying non-EU. The way he does it now, doesn't make sense, as it is much hard to create a successful company. 

10

All i want to know is, is it cheating? The Wiki section doesnt really answer my question

11

It is. Have a look at the 1st picture on this link: http://en.airlinesim.aero/wiki/index.php/Tutorial/1.5/Expert_Knowledge/Traffic_Rights

His holding is France (Green). UK/London is his second country (Gray) and the UK is an EU member. But he flies to a Third Country (White), non EU (e.g USA/Atlanta). And there is a big red cross on flying from a second country to a third country.

12

We should wait for a final statement by AS on this...

13

How shall I answer all these answers as long as I haven't figured out the exact circumstances this is allowed and made an opinion. Don't get me wrong, but currently these perfomces problems and the linked development are making me ill ... so please give me some days to sort all this out!

14

I have been thinking of this and after some thorough analysis I came to a conclusion that this is NOT bug using or cheating, but rather using two inherent features of AS.

1) connecting traffic rights from non-traffic rights point if the passenger airline has traffic rights on the first leg

2) EU treaty traffic rights within the EU.

Based on the above, it is not bug using per my opinion.

Why?

I give an example:

A US-based airline, with USA traffic rights, establishes a hub in London, for example, from where he flies to other destinations. He will have traffic rights USA-via Europe-to final destination. This has been long known in AS and accepted, though it was not easy to pull off financially, because you needed a lot of flights on long haul planes (expensive)

Now let's take this a bit further.

A USA airline establishes a subsidiary in Venezuela. This subsidiary will have USA traffic rights, meaning it cannot take passengers in Venezuela but can take inbound passengers from USA. This airline can run a route from Caracas to any major USA city, and to any major Latin American city, and it will have traffic rights between USA and those Latin American cities, via Venezuela. If he has sufficient flights, he can live off connecting traffic, IN CARACAS WITHOUT TRAFFIC RIGHTS IN VENEZUELA AND WITHOUT ANY TRAFFIC ORIGINATING IN CARACAS.

The capitalized point is the one to keep in mind when we now move to the Quimby case of the STN based airline.

This airline is connecting EU-originating traffic (to which it has rights - e.g. CPH-STN) to a foreign point (e.g. ORD, ATL) through a point from which it does not have any rights (STN). It also does not have right for any passengers originating in STN. Same as in the previous example, the Venezuelan subsidiary of USA airline was connecting USA traffic (to which it had rights - e.g. MIA-CCS) to a foreign point (e.g. GRU) through a point from which it does not have any traffic rights (CCS), and as well it would not have any traffic rights for passengers originating in CCS.

While I understand that running CPH-STN-ORD and having connecting rights on the route may seem as bug using for a France-based/France-rights airline, it actually is NOT. It is the same as USA airline using Venezuela for connections. The only way, in my opinion, to prevent this, would for the E.U. treaty (and corresponding within-EU traffic rights) be abandoned in AS (which, of course, will not happen, and neither it should happen!).

15

Guys. Let’s differentiate between traffic rights and flying rights.

This guy is not at any advantage because he is not utilising any traffic rights illegally. He is completely within his right to set up such a network!!

I must say, I am impressed by his thought process.

16

Hi,

this airline is not cheating, he is operating a scissor hub. This sort of connections also exist on a smaller scale in real life.

On the Tempelhof server there is an Italian airline who flies from every airport in Italy to Cairo. From Cairo he flies to every airport in the Middle East. This Italian airline has no traffic rights to sell tickets in Egypt (for flights from Cairo to Dubai or Doha) but he is allowed to sell tickets to Italian passengers from Palermo to Dubai via Cairo.

There are two reasons for this: he does not have enough passengers in Catania or Bologna to fill a plane to Dubai or Ryadh, but there are enough Italian passengers who fly to the Middle East in general, and who take a connecting flight to their exact destination in Cairo. Secondly, there were no slots available in his main hub in Rome. So a scissor hub halfway the Middle East solved his problems. I guess he operates more flights between Italy and Cairo than flights between Cairo and the Middle East, because some passengers don't travel further than Cairo.

This player was even kind enough to ask me if organising a scissor hub in my home hub Cairo would not cause me any (slot) problems.

In the case you mentioned, the sytem should only allow him to carry French passengers (I mean from different French airports) via London to different USA airports. If the ORS system books tickets from CPH to ORD via his flights through London, there is a bug. But don't blame the player, because he cannot even tell where his transfer passengers come from.

Besides, the fact that the flight from CPH to STN is fully booked, and the flight from STN to ORD is fully booked, does not mean that there are passengers from CPH who book a ticket to ORD.

Jan

17

Is he than flying only with internal passengers from STN to ORD? 

But it still doesn't make sense as he only has a hub in STN and not in France. When starting your company, why not start in STN in the first place?!

edited: I see that this as the do as he also has another subsidiary in France!

18

Hi,

he doesn't need a hub  in France. He needs to fly from several French airports to London.

And what about passengers who arrive in London with a French interlining partner ? Wouldn't they also be able to make the transfer on a plane bound for the USA ?

Jan

19

As I know this particular user, I can say it is indeed setup as a scissor hub.

Taking the CPH-ORD route for example, CPH passengers can connect to any of his destinations in the EU via STN so this flight would be full. Likewise, as far as the STN-ORD portion goes, they all can connect to anywhere in France so given his ratings, it makes sense the flights would be full.

20

Hi,

he doesn't need a hub  in France. He needs to fly from several French airports to London.

And what about passengers who arrive in London with a French interlining partner ? Wouldn't they also be able to make the transfer on a plane bound for the USA ?

Jan

In the real world, so long as the initial selling partner has traffic rights for France-USA, yes. I am not sure if AS is setup this way.