The request of investigation of bankropt of Blue Planet Skyways

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41

With all due respect george,

I don't think Alex gives a **** about the exact moment that the fleet staff was hired. And to be honest, nor do I.

If I get a message today, I don't rush to check what day the plane will be returned. Nor do I put it in my agenda. There is enough micro management do be done. When it happens, I sigh and dutifully fire the staff that I did not ask for. I have been playing this game for 5 years now and I have never complained about this. It is merely a nuisance, that's all.

But it is more than a nuisance if it causes a unnecessary and avoidable bankruptcy.

I know the system hires fleet staff behind my back. I also know that all my subisidaries will disappear if my holding collapses. Now Alex also knows it. But you cannot blame him for not knowing it before it happened.

There is also nothing realistic about it. Bankruptcy of a subsidiary is realistic: all assets are sold, leased planes are returned to AS and the deposits come back, staff is fired and paid out, and so on. And if there is any money left, you will get it back.

This simply should not have happened.

Mind you, my reasoning is based on the assmuption that Alex went bankrupt because his empty holding suddenly hired staff behind his backĀ  ;-)

Jan

42

I agree with you, and I wrote above, that at least one emergency-loan for payment of week end closing wages should be hard-coded so it will absolutely be granted always (the first time), with a subsequent in-game message being sent to inform the player. The player should then act and move the money to the holding and pay off the loan, and fire the unnecessary staff.

I also wrote that it is not a good idea to deal with aircraft (buying/selling/transferring) using your holding if that holding does not actively fly and generate revenue. Most players create investment/leasing subsidiaries for that very reason. Your Red Sun has one as well ;)

43

Almost happen to me, but luckily i was granted emergency loan. Just then I noticed that holding has some expense and I transferred some idle money to it.

I did turn off automatic crew hire, but was not aware that when you transfer plane, the holding hire some ground crew to manage the fleet.

The holding is definitely an idle one, doesn't have any route, doesn't fly anywhere, only have one station as HQ, so that emergency loan must be miracle..

Anyway sorry for the loss, they need to fix this, instead of liquidating the holding, they might start liquidate the sub's assets first perhaps.. Doesn't make sense for simulation as well as in real life, but I would love one real particular airline in my country to do this mistake and be gone next morning lol..Ā 

44

Almost happen to me, but luckily i was granted emergency loan. Just then I noticed that holding has some expense and I transferred some idle money to it.

I did turn off automatic crew hire, but was not aware that when you transfer plane, the holding hire some ground crew to manage the fleet.

The holding is definitely an idle one, doesn't have any route, doesn't fly anywhere, only have one station as HQ, so that emergency loan must be miracle..

Anyway sorry for the loss, they need to fix this, instead of liquidating the holding, they might start liquidate the sub's assets first perhaps.. Doesn't make sense for simulation as well as in real life, but I would love one real particular airline in my country to do this mistake and be gone next morning lol.. 

True that, but in real life pilots won't get hired from thin air. They need to have interviews and go through simulator checks before joining the airline.

Which airline would you want to go under? I would want Air Asia to go under as they have no business class on shorter flights while Garuda, Lion and Batik have. Though Air Asia have a modern fleet and have great business class on Air Asia X. There are some third world carriers in indonesia as well but I have never flown them so I can not judge them.

45

But "bobb" going by your own words, you suggested "selling off a plane, or liquidating subsidiary" ... well in case of the OP, that would mean liquidating his subsidiary, which was his main airline, along with everything, he would still lose everything but would have some money in the bank still. But how is this more realistic "compared to real life" (as your own words say) than just complete liquidation? A real life airline would not be liquidated if a majority shareholder could not pay his 3 secretaries one week, right? You actually entrapped yourself with your own words and suggestions :)

But I agree, it is not logical to liquidate the whole holding because of such silly mistake. In the light of this situation, it might be optimal to hard-code one "confirmed" rescue loan with in-game message. If the player then does not pay attention to that, well, then ...

When a subsidiary is liquidated, all the money (minus leasing fees, staff compensation, etc.) goes back to the holding and you can restart the subsidiary, lease airplanes again and recreate schedules. You will lose some money, you will lose any cheap aircraft you managed to get in the market, you will lose the image bonus, and if you're not fast enough you may lose slots. You won't be able to recreate the airline exactly as it was before, but you'll be able to recreate most of it.

When a holding is liquidated, all the subsidiaries are liquidated as well and you lose everything that took you months or years to build and have to start again with just 10 million. Huge difference here!

I agree it's not a perfect solution, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now. My point was, if you cannot pay your wages the game should start removing assets little by little to pay those wages, and in the worst case scenario, when the holding has no assets at all other than the money invested in subsidiaries, even liquidating a subsidiary and transferring the money back to the holding would still be a much better alternative than liquidating the holding and losing everything. It simply makes no sense whatsoever for a company to go bankrupt if its assets are a hundred times bigger than its debts. No sense at all.

46

Seriously though, does anybody disagree that it's ridiculous that a profitable airline group goes bankrupt because of a minute cash shortfall in the holding? When several subsidiaries easily have enough ready cash to cover the difference?

We can discuss the finer details of staff management or whatever, but this just seems insane to me.

47

I had no connection with AS team yet . I send the support ticket ( #ticket number removed - wrong ticket number...) beside this topic ....

48

To be honest ... I don't know on how to help you.

The problem is - your holding went bancrupty. What shall a business solution do if an enterprise is bancrupty? Liquidating it is the only way. And that happened to your holding and therefore also with all its subsidiaries.

49

Alex, there is no doubt now that your holding was liquidated because of 40 hired employees and inability to pay their wages at week end closing last Friday.

This snapsoht was taken by Bing about 9 hours 40 minutes before your holding's liquidation (02.31 UTC, as per time in the lower bar).

1yxOxys.png

Bing cache link (as of now active)

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=riem.airlinesim.aero%2fapp%2finfo%2fenterprises%2f3214&d=5060271835847692&mkt=es-xl&setlang=en-US&w=BdaLmoT7nsj9JUpxHCnLiK9krQMaBCde

50

SK, with all due respect to you:

We all know he went into bankruptcy. But everyone who posted on this thread agrees that it is illogical he went into bankrutcy because staff was hired without him knowing it. We all know wiki is outdated and there is no public information that states that staff is hired when you transfer an aircraft (which is what happened here).

He did not operate a single flight with his holding, nor owned terminals, nor anything. He just had a stupid 40 staff hired somehow without him knowing it (see post above).

Below is a Bing snapshot of his airline's fleet page

nmvL3Gp.png

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=riem.airlinesim.aero%2fapp%2finfo%2fenterprises%2f3215&d=4614299643414671&mkt=es-xl&setlang=en-US&w=Tz2xIPXBjz4yVzQvBXYdFN0LANE7gAn7

I think the correct thing to do would be to give him 600 million to his newly recreted airline Angeles Airways on Riem.

How I came to that number is listed below. Most likley, his money tied in deposits and seats, plus cash on bank account was much more than this.

Giving him just 600 million AS$ instead of the 1 billion his company was worth, would be "punishment enough" for overlooking that he somehow hired a 40 staff.

Lg43Fov.png

This should be a right thing to do.

And in addition to that, I would put a note on the asset management "Transferring Aircraft may cause receving airline to hire staff".

For examle, Aircraft Transfer now states this:

"This tool allows the transfer of aircraft from this enterprise to any other subsidiary of your holding. Please note that certain restrictions might apply depending on the transfer method or in case any of the involved companies is listed on the stock market."

It could be modified (an easy job... yes Marin I know patch would need to be applied, but it's worth it in order to prevent things like this happening in the future) to read as:

"This tool allows the transfer of aircraft from this enterprise to any other subsidiary of your holding. Please note that certain restrictions might apply depending on the transfer method or in case any of the involved companies is listed on the stock market. Please note that transferring aircraft may cause the receiving airline to hire staff. It is your responsibility to verify this and take care of such hired staff accordingly."

51

He might have had a couple of 100 million in the bank but I think giving 600 million sounds fair. How do you know these aircraft were not purchased from loans.

52

Can AS team give a holding a certainĀ amount of money? (i mean from technical side)

53

CBE - He stated in the first post his subsidiary worth was 955 million plus this weekā€™s 49 million profit. That would correspond to my numbers. Of course there is no way of knowing if the owned aircraft were fully paid, but if his subsidiary worth was 955 million, then there is a strong probability the aircraft was owned.

TWA - AS can take away money (see Aspen cases of small seats) so I strongly believe they can add as well.

54

I had no loan at the moment of crash. You have just trust me in case of you can not to check it.

55

that means those 40 employees made your holding bankrupt. i think AS should give you more cash to start up again

56

To be honest ... I don't know on how to help you.

The problem is - your holding went bancrupty. What shall a business solution do if an enterprise is bancrupty? Liquidating it is the only way. And that happened to your holding and therefore also with all its subsidiaries.

Hi Sascha,

the holding and subsidiaries were not liquidated. They were simply deleted.

Deleting is what you do if a player has deliberately cheated the system, and it is the worst punishment in the game. In many cases cheaters only pay a fine. This guy is not even a cheater.

I understand that you don't know how you can help Alex at this stage... giving a compensation in this particular case may result in daily requests for compensation. But that is a poor reason not to help a player who is victim of a flaw in the game. Maybe you can give this problem to the advisory board. They can look into the evidence that George has produced.

It would also be nice if this sort of mishap could be avoided in future. Adding a warning when transferring a plane could be useful. It could also be useful if one emergency loan was always granted. Even if the holding seems to have no income to pay back the loan.

Cheers,

Jan

@George: I tried to send you a private message the other day. Your (forum) mailbox did not accept my message. Mailbox full ?

57

Adding a warning when transferring a plane could be useful. It could also be useful if one emergency loan was always granted. Even if the holding seems to have no income to pay back the loan.

A warning wouldn't suffice, it would simply be one more annoyance that players click through without reading.

Although it wonā€™t help with this situation, couldnā€™t the insolvency procedure be adapted to give a single weekā€™s emergency loan (call it ā€œbankruptcy protection loanā€ if a new process is needed because a holding with no operations wouldnā€™t qualify for a normal rescue loan) and send a message to the player, then liquidated the next week if the situation isnā€™t resolved and the loan repaid? It would take care of the initial problem by letting the user know that thereā€™s an issue to be resolved, gives some time to solve it including forum/support consultations if needed, then liquidates if action isnā€™t taken.

 

We all know wiki is outdated and there is no public information that states that staff is hired when you transfer an aircraft (which is what happened here).

The wiki has been braindead for years now, isn't it time to pull the plug? Create a subforum with the various rules where only the admins (perhaps the UAB as well?) can create/edit/reply and let the corpse be buried. The Wiki that has content is only accessible through a world's "community" dropdown (isn't even linked on the support page), and wiki.airlinesim.aero brings up a blank wiki. It would mean maintaining one less system as well.
58

One day before the liquidation I had discussion with my alliance / Odessey/ about IPO of ANGELES Airways and Iā€™d call the value of airline as 860 millions AS dollars , but this number was without value of 6 airplanes that have been transfered to ZIP Skyliners subsidiary to own without compensations : 2ƗSSJ-95 , 2ƗSSJ-95LR, 2ƗATR-42-600 . Zip Skylines have been deleted too as part of the holding Blue Planet Skyways.

59

This is really a sad situation. I would also like to ask AS team to support here and bring alex11369s holding back to life.

And yes, you could argue that hiring staff is visible and if wages cannot be paid, the holding is liquidated. But how many players here in the game are looking to their holding when having successfull subsidaries which are running on their own? So an emergency loan would help a lot to prevent players loosing their whole company structure.

Come on, Martin, help alex11369!

60

This is really a sad situation. I would also like to ask AS team to support here and bring alex11369s holding back to life.

And yes, you could argue that hiring staff is visible and if wages cannot be paid, the holding is liquidated. But how many players here in the game are looking to their holding when having successfull subsidaries which are running on their own? So an emergency loan would help a lot to prevent players loosing their whole company structure.

Come on, Martin, help alex11369!

That is not possible from what I know. I did not know that AS takes individual backups of all airlines.