Please, teach me how to play.

English Boards General
121

My points...

  • Big Airline shut down - Yes
  • Many players flock - Yes
  • Most start with 10 mil - No - ALL started with 10 mil
  • Spezialist has a starting point - No - A player
  • Highscores subsidery - No - Another player
  • Valuing about 100 mil - Yes
  • Considered fair? What is unfair about this process...
    • Well did all players start with the amount? Yes.
    • Were the aircraft given direct from one holding to another? No
    • Did the aircraft go through the used aircraft market? Yes
    • Did all players have an opportunity to bid for these aircraft? Yes

By continuously drawing a line between "them" and "us" you don't seem to get it

come on, please dont be naiv

the aircrafts have surely been transferred during the "dark hours" when the likelyhood that another player interferes is very low. and you can bet that highscore would have cancelled all leasing contracts would by accident i have leased the aircraft :blink:

it is just a theoretical view that everybody could have leased them based on the same conditions. in reality that was not the case.

122

But again that leaves two issues with your theory.

  1. Players are worldwide, if people wanted to bit they could of done
  2. As an owner it is up to the owner if or not he wants to do business with someone else

Does this happen in real life, absolutely. You don't see countless court cases about aircraft leasing rates been different from one customer to another

123

[Once again, my personal opinion here]

So, where do I even start?

I guess it should be pointed out: ImperatorNero = viennabert. Just so everybody knows that some of these posts belong to the same person (who owns the largest US Airline on Aspern these days).

It started with the claim that private leasing is soooo bad and should be punished. Yet - despite being an active player - this has never bothered you before. And it still doesn't seem to bother you when looking at an alliance member of yours with his recently founded airline, which is collaborating with your airline, getting two thirds of its fleet from private lessors.

Then it was said that team/UAB members should act differently and don't use private leasing - even if it's okay for others to do so. But there's nothing illegal about it. I don't know any case where someone would have been punished for it. It's even offered openly on the forums, as it was pointed out earlier. So if it's legal and others are haven been and are using it for quite some time - what's wrong with team/UAB members doing it? We're just players like anybody else on a game world.

Now there are some "calculations" made how much money my airline must have spent on planes - I'm obviously not commenting on these numbers, because nobody else would be revealing internal business information either. So how to know I'm not cheating? You've already reported my airline, so somebody else from AS Support will review the log and be able to tell you that everything's alright.

You should also consider: Wouldn't I be especially stupid if I actually cheated? While I'm just playing the game as everybody else does, the pressure on me (as proven with this thread) is definitely much higher. So I'd be risking a lot more.

Now the theory claims that it'd be impossible to make the amount of money you calculated. And that just isn't true. Some very experienced players (who probably know the game even better than I do) have already hinted at you that it's not impossible. So, why aren't you making another calculation how this should be so impossible? Well you can't, because actually it is possible. For example, you forgot to take into account that you can take loans...Maybe we should compare the financial performance you can achieve? I can compare these numbers, because I got aircraft from AS Leasing as well. So how much do you get from a Boeing 737-700 BGW, leased at market prices? How about a margin above 50%?

PS:

It's not my intention to sound rude in any way. But with such a big accusation against me, I think it's fair that I can make my point.

I'd also like to remind people that I would personally favor a much more regulated gameplay. (- Maybe we should get back to that question instead of accusations? -) But we've already seen posts of people who'd disagree with that regulation idea a lot. And they do have a point as well. Private leasing that enables growth for new airlines can be a means of competing with holdings that control a big share of a market - like the "Black Hole Group" owned by viennabert does on Aspern with more than 35% of US passenger market share.

124

Ok so this multi accounting stuff is getting ridiculous in my opinion, especially when the same multi accounter is posting with two different screen names. Can we have a master list of who is the same person (despite it clearly been against game rules)

125

come on, please dont be naiv

the aircrafts have surely been transferred during the "dark hours" when the likelyhood that another player interferes is very low. and you can bet that highscore would have cancelled all leasing contracts would by accident i have leased the aircraft :blink:

it is just a theoretical view that everybody could have leased them based on the same conditions. in reality that was not the case.

Right - I would not want to lease out a plane to you. But I can send you the list of people I am supporting. You will never be on that list and I don't want to be in contact with you. I also stopped the ILs with you but is this also forbidden? No. Or perhaps it is forbidden in your dreamworld rules?

About the hours: all players are living in different time zones. So the chance to bid on the planes was there and is always there. Bullshit to ask for access for everybody.

126

Ok so this multi accounting stuff is getting ridiculous in my opinion, especially when the same multi accounter is posting with two different screen names. Can we have a master list of who is the same person (despite it clearly been against game rules)

It's not against the game rules . that'd only be the case if he'd be using both accounts in the same game world, otherwise it's no advantage. 

But I do agree that it's a bit confusing here. Normally it was only ImperatorNero posting here on the forums, I don't know why he decided to change that today.
127

Assuming the aircraft were sold internally to refresh actual book value,

2.7 y/o 73G leased @ 10% = 32.300 AS$ per week, $323,000 deposit

x 44 aircraft = 14,212,000

2.9 y/o 73G leased from UM at lowest possible price, AS$160,825 per week, $1,620,825 deposit

x 12 aircraft = 19,299,000

3.1 y/o 739 leased @ 10% = 43.802 AS$ per week, $438,020 deposit

x 34 aircraft = 14,892,680

3.0 y/o 739 leased from UM at lowest posisble proce, AS$213,480 per week, $2,130,480 deposit

x 8 = 17,078,400

54 seat configs @ 202,800 = 10,951,200

42 seat configs @ 281,800 = 11,835,600

total = 88,268,880

399.527 pax

99.7% LF

8496 Y seats

1650 C seats

1:5 Y:C ratio

So let's get own to calculations.

Revenues assume 99.7% LF, catering assumes my own catering plans (which are on rather expensive side).

smple

DEN-MDW - 1446 km - 739

revenue Y: 26,440

revenue C: 15,573

total revenue: 42,013

flight cost less lease: 7,557

catering cost: 2,219

average lease cost: 1,903 (10% and regular lease weighted average)

net profit per flight: 30,334

profit margin: 72,2%

profit per pax: 248,64 per pax = 249 AS$

Revenue seat KM: 176,412

Profit RSK: 0.172

sample

DEN-ABQ - 529 km - 73G

Revenue Y: 10,983

Revenue C:  6,849

total revenue: 17,832

flight cost less lease: 4,085 (RT average)

catering cost: 1,045

average lease cost: 998 (10% and regular lease weighted average)

net profit per flight: 11,702

profit margin: 65.6%

profit per pax: 134,5 per pax = 134.5 = 135 AS$

Revenue seat KM: 46,023

Profit RSK: 0.254

sample

DEN-SNA - 1,353 km - 73G

Revenue Y: 17,587

Revenue C: 10,947

total revenue: 28,537

flight cost less lease: 6,460 (RT average)

catering cost: 1,609

average lease cost: 1,496 (10% and regular lease weighted average)

net profit per flight: 18,972

profit margin: 66.5%

profit per pax: 218,07 per pax = 218.1 = 218 AS$

Revenue seat KM: 117,711

Profit RSK: 0.161

sample

DEN-LAX - 1,399 km - 739

Revenue Y: 25,220

Revenue C: 14,835

total revenue: 40,055

fight cost less lease: 8,716

catering cost: 2,219

average lease cost: 1,903 (10% and regular lease weighted average)

net profit per flight: 27,217

profit margin: 67.9%

profit per pax: 223,09 per pax = 223.1 = 223 AS$

Revenue seat KM: 170,678

Profit RSK: 0.159

Average profit RSK: 0.1865

Total ASK: 514,956,003

Total RSK: 513,411,135

Total Profit: 95,751,176

Total profit using 0.164 PRSK (average of lower 3): 84,199,426

Average profit per pax: 206.25

Profit calculated w/per-pax-profit: 82,402,444

Average profit per pax (average of higher 3): 230

Profit calculated w/per-pax-profit (avHg3): 91,891,210

Average of all profit calculations: 88,561,064

This is the same amount as invested in lease deposits & seats, and there are still initial 10 million AS$ on top of that.

All calculations in this post use publicly available information, with the exception of catering where I used my values which are rather on the expensive side, and assume one of two particular maintenance providers.

Now can all you envious people go away?

 

1 Like
128

Ok so this multi accounting stuff is getting ridiculous in my opinion, especially when the same multi accounter is posting with two different screen names. Can we have a master list of who is the same person (despite it clearly been against game rules)

Interesting that it just came to light of day that ImperatorNero = Viennabert

I am wondering what is the agenda of posting under two different names. I am sure so far in this thread, we all know it , right ... it's called envy

129

It's not against the game rules . that'd only be the case if he'd be using both accounts in the same game world, otherwise it's no advantage. 

But I do agree that it's a bit confusing here. Normally it was only ImperatorNero posting here on the forums, I don't know why he decided to change that today.

i prefer to post as imperatornero, but sometimes, when logged into aspern i posted - more as a mishap - as viennabert. it happend also before but people did not take notice

130

Interesting that it just came to light of day that ImperatorNero = Viennabert

I am wondering what is the agenda of posting under two different names. I am sure so far in this thread, we all know it , right ... it's called envy

dont be so childish

131

dont be so childish

No, sorry I forgot that it's actually your vendetta because of the small aircraft rule. Either one reason it is, who is being childish here is you.

You have been proven cheap leases are OK. You have been proven all that money could have been earned in 18 days the airline has been functioning. So what will you come up with next?

132

My points...

  • Big Airline shut down - Yes
  • Many players flock - Yes
  • Most start with 10 mil - No - ALL started with 10 mil
  • Spezialist has a starting point - No - A player
  • Highscores subsidery - No - Another player
  • Valuing about 100 mil - Yes
  • Considered fair? What is unfair about this process...
  • Well did all players start with the amount? Yes.
  • Were the aircraft given direct from one holding to another? No
  • Did the aircraft go through the used aircraft market? Yes
  • Did all players have an opportunity to bid for these aircraft? Yes

By continuously drawing a line between “them” and “us” you don’t seem to get it

I’m sorry to say, but the last “yes” is a joke, unless you are blind.

Pay attention: Highscore and Spezialist adjust all things. All planes went to Spezialist. The few exceptions, the leasing was cancelled. Spezialist is the one who knows the auction time.

This is, IN FACT, a direct donation of nore than 100 million.

We are not stupids.

133

[Once again, my personal opinion here]

So, where do I even start?

I guess it should be pointed out: ImperatorNero = viennabert. Just so everybody knows that some of these posts belong to the same person (who owns the largest US Airline on Aspern these days).

It started with the claim that private leasing is soooo bad and should be punished. Yet - despite being an active player - this has never bothered you before. And it still doesn’t seem to bother you when looking at an alliance member of yours with his recently founded airline, which is collaborating with your airline, getting two thirds of its fleet from private lessors.

Then it was said that team/UAB members should act differently and don’t use private leasing - even if it’s okay for others to do so. But there’s nothing illegal about it. I don’t know any case where someone would have been punished for it. It’s even offered openly on the forums, as it was pointed out earlier. So if it’s legal and others are haven been and are using it for quite some time - what’s wrong with team/UAB members doing it? We’re just players like anybody else on a game world.

Now there are some “calculations” made how much money my airline must have spent on planes - I’m obviously not commenting on these numbers, because nobody else would be revealing internal business information either. So how to know I’m not cheating? You’ve already reported my airline, so somebody else from AS Support will review the log and be able to tell you that everything’s alright.

You should also consider: Wouldn’t I be especially stupid if I actually cheated? While I’m just playing the game as everybody else does, the pressure on me (as proven with this thread) is definitely much higher. So I’d be risking a lot more.

Now the theory claims that it’d be impossible to make the amount of money you calculated. And that just isn’t true. Some very experienced players (who probably know the game even better than I do) have already hinted at you that it’s not impossible. So, why aren’t you making another calculation how this should be so impossible? Well you can’t, because actually it is possible. For example, you forgot to take into account that you can take loans…Maybe we should compare the financial performance you can achieve? I can compare these numbers, because I got aircraft from AS Leasing as well. So how much do you get from a Boeing 737-700 BGW, leased at market prices? How about a margin above 50%?

PS:

It’s not my intention to sound rude in any way. But with such a big accusation against me, I think it’s fair that I can make my point.

I’d also like to remind people that I would personally favor a much more regulated gameplay. (- Maybe we should get back to that question instead of accusations? -) But we’ve already seen posts of people who’d disagree with that regulation idea a lot. And they do have a point as well. Private leasing that enables growth for new airlines can be a means of competing with holdings that control a big share of a market - like the “Black Hole Group” owned by viennabert does on Aspern with more than 35% of US passenger market share.

Ok. You did that in order to compete with Black Hole.

You forgot years of work by Black Hole CEO. And you forgot he started with no free 70 B 737.

And tell me and teach me. How can I cheat to compete with you in Aspern?

Maybe Highscore is willing to give free 70 B737 to all other 160 Aspern players.

134

del

This is not fair.

135

[Once again, my personal opinion here]

So, where do I even start?

I guess it should be pointed out: ImperatorNero = viennabert. Just so everybody knows that some of these posts belong to the same person (who owns the largest US Airline on Aspern these days).

It started with the claim that private leasing is soooo bad and should be punished. Yet - despite being an active player - this has never bothered you before. And it still doesn't seem to bother you when looking at an alliance member of yours with his recently founded airline, which is collaborating with your airline, getting two thirds of its fleet from private lessors.

Then it was said that team/UAB members should act differently and don't use private leasing - even if it's okay for others to do so. But there's nothing illegal about it. I don't know any case where someone would have been punished for it. It's even offered openly on the forums, as it was pointed out earlier. So if it's legal and others are haven been and are using it for quite some time - what's wrong with team/UAB members doing it? We're just players like anybody else on a game world.

Now there are some "calculations" made how much money my airline must have spent on planes - I'm obviously not commenting on these numbers, because nobody else would be revealing internal business information either. So how to know I'm not cheating? You've already reported my airline, so somebody else from AS Support will review the log and be able to tell you that everything's alright.

You should also consider: Wouldn't I be especially stupid if I actually cheated? While I'm just playing the game as everybody else does, the pressure on me (as proven with this thread) is definitely much higher. So I'd be risking a lot more.

Now the theory claims that it'd be impossible to make the amount of money you calculated. And that just isn't true. Some very experienced players (who probably know the game even better than I do) have already hinted at you that it's not impossible. So, why aren't you making another calculation how this should be so impossible? Well you can't, because actually it is possible. For example, you forgot to take into account that you can take loans...Maybe we should compare the financial performance you can achieve? I can compare these numbers, because I got aircraft from AS Leasing as well. So how much do you get from a Boeing 737-700 BGW, leased at market prices? How about a margin above 50%?

PS:

It's not my intention to sound rude in any way. But with such a big accusation against me, I think it's fair that I can make my point.

I'd also like to remind people that I would personally favor a much more regulated gameplay. (- Maybe we should get back to that question instead of accusations? -) But we've already seen posts of people who'd disagree with that regulation idea a lot. And they do have a point as well. Private leasing that enables growth for new airlines can be a means of competing with holdings that control a big share of a market - like the "Black Hole Group" owned by viennabert does on Aspern with more than 35% of US passenger market share.

hi spezialist, thanks for replying

let's address the issue point-by-point

nobody claimed that private leasing is wrongdoing. i also lease cheaply if possible.

it has been claimed a) that you got a huge advantage over any other startup in us (that can hardly be denied) which can be seen as quite unfair, b) and that the optics to have this collusion between an uab member and an as team member is not a good one.

it is my opinion (and i am NOT alone) that "officials" should refrain from that and deliver the best example possible.

if you take the rules literally nothing is wrong.

the "calculations" are not ridiculous. they probably fit well. CBE stated in the meantime that the figures might be achievable. so it comes into consideration that i was wrong with my suspicion that there might have been other malversions. the figures would then just show how big your advantage over the other players was.

that you shall make your point is only fair.

i also want to make the point that there were no clear accusations but reasonable grounds for suspecting. if you would publish your results we all might learn something and the case would become cristal clear. it is your decision of course.

i want to state that your last post gave me a better feeling and the hope that the case will be cleared away.

136

What's wrong with the concept of help in-game? Many start-ups recieve help, only this time someone gets more than generous grant. I doubt any US-whale airline would have a problem with crippling a start-up like that. After all, mentioned airline started with 10 milions and went all the way to 100 millions in 2 weeks. Any main US airline could have slowed that down using their own capital -> setting up additional flighs, dumping price and so on. But they didn't. It's called competition, nothing more sinister than that.

137

Maybe a way to keep something like this from happening again to take a look at the length a plane stays on the market. Change it to anytime a plane is listed for 40% or lower of its book value, it has to stay on the market for at least eight hours. That would give more people a chance to see it.

138

Maybe a way to keep something like this from happening again to take a look at the length a plane stays on the market. Change it to anytime a plane is listed for 40% or lower of its book value, it has to stay on the market for at least eight hours. That would give more people a chance to see it.

This makes no sense, because then nobody could bid on that aircraft because nobody would know how long it had been on the market at that time. What you just suggested is an incredibly awesome fallacy.

139

This makes no sense, because then nobody could bid on that aircraft because nobody would know how long it had been on the market at that time. What you just suggested is an incredibly awesome fallacy.

No it’s not. The first bid on the aircraft lasts eights hours unless there is a higher bid. Last time I checked, there was a little timer on the bid, so everyone would know how much time is left.

140
  • Did all players have an opportunity to bid for these aircraft? Yes

Come on, it doesn't take a genius to know that if you want to lease or sell a plane to a specific player you just agree by PM the specific time of the transaction. Players aren't OCD'ly checking the used market every hour for bargains, so the chance of another player getting a plane is quite slim - and in the off chance that happens, you can still cancel the lease and repeat next week.

That said, while giving a new player such a big advantage may or may not be considered somewhat unethical, it is totally and completely legal.